Hordes of the Abyss.

[Psion]

It's easier to weaken a creature than to make it stronger.

No, it's not.

Even were it, I think the issue to consider is how many people would be having to change it in the first place. Fewer people use epic rules.

But, in case you missed, Erik said there are scaling notes in the rules. I think they predicted a response like this.

 

[Delta]

...those that want lower powered demon lords may do well to use the 3.0 demons in the MM with the 3.5 demon lords in Hordes of the Abyss.

Exactly what occured to me. I prefer playing 3.0. I think the Epic Rules were a mistake from day one. The uber deities and demon lords, and power creep in 3.5 demons made those stats unusable.

I haven't bought a WOTC book in a few years, but this news might actually make this book highly desirable to me!

 

[DaveMage]

Well, I'm buying the book regardless of nerfed demon lords. I just hope the regular demons included match up appropriately with their MM brethren.

The only thing that peeves me a bit is the disconnect that exists between epic and non-epic play. If WotC is designing products with the presumption that only a very small amount of people are interested in epic play - and is therefore unimportant to support - then I'm going to have to retool my games to fit newer products. (I could stop buying the products, I suppose, but what fun is that?)

I'd probably have to re-do the XP chart to slow progression down, and that's not something my players - or I - would like to do. We progress pretty quickly right now (we went from 10th level to epic in about 24 sessions).

 

[Kunimatyu]

I for one am more interested in the other aspects of the book.

I'm not going to use the CR20ish demon lord stats for the actual demon lord, just an Avatar, as Avatars are supposed to clock in around CR20.

It'd be cool if WotC released a web enhancement with a "Manifest" or "Lair" template to apply to the demon lords to make them +10 CR and uber. Of course, the Paragon Creature epic template is in the SRD, so that just might work...

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm

 

[JoeGKushner]

hat's with the reprints? The goristro? We have that back in Manual of the Planes along with the 3.5 Update Booklet. I hope that was the only reprint, though a reprint of the Mane, Shadow Demon, Rutterkin, Chasme, and Bar-lgura is sorely needed because those haven't been updated to 3.5 from Book of Vile Darkness.

Not 100% sure, but the ones I bolded I'm pretty sure are in this book.

 

[Psion]

It'd be cool if WotC released a web enhancement with a "Manifest" or "Lair" template to apply to the demon lords to make them +10 CR and uber.

Is everyone missing what Erik posted on page 1?

but I should add that there's a section on advancing the demon lords into epic levels for folks who are interested in playing that kind of challenge

It seems like they are making a very good effort to address all concerned.

 

[Kunimatyu]

Is everyone missing what Erik posted on page 1?

I got that. I just have a feeling that the Scaling section is about a paragraph or two long and doesn't contain the needed info. I could, of course, be wrong.

I just finished looking over the Paragon template, and I'm liking that idea more and more as a way to upgrade the demon lords.

I hope that the demon lords are at least CR 21, though. Having them be on exactly the same level as a balor does create some logic problems, especially with demons.

 

[Razz]

Well, I'm buying the book regardless of nerfed demon lords. I just hope the regular demons included match up appropriately with their MM brethren.

The only thing that peeves me a bit is the disconnect that exists between epic and non-epic play. If WotC is designing products with the presumption that only a very small amount of people are interested in epic play - and is therefore unimportant to support - then I'm going to have to retool my games to fit newer products. (I could stop buying the products, I suppose, but what fun is that?)

I'd probably have to re-do the XP chart to slow progression down, and that's not something my players - or I - would like to do. We progress pretty quickly right now (we went from 10th level to epic in about 24 sessions).

I have noticed that as well. Epic support both in WotC books and Dragon have been significantly even less than support for psionics. Makes me wonder why they even bothered creating the epic rules? Probably should have left it at "extrapolate the XP table, gain HD, skill points, feats, bonus feats if it's a single class, extrapolate abilities" and left it at that. One page would've been enough.

But then, there just some things you can never do at level 20, like cast a spell to shear off an entire mountain top, turn it upside and give it the ability to levitate or summon a volcano at will, or take down a monster who's buffed its AC with feats and magic items and armor so high that even a tanked up, buffed, 20th level Fighter still couldn't hit it. You couldn't do the Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon ability to deflect dozens of projectiles coming at you that your player wanted for his monk so bad were it not for epic rules. So the epic rules do come in handy for those situations.

I see epic rules as what my players see in the japanese anime or even in the movies and say "Why can't my guy do that in D&D?" I've been hearing that from their lips for 10 years, since high school, and it hasn't stopped.

That's true. Why shouldn't they? Wouldn't be broken. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, eh? Their foes have the same access.

 

[Razz]

I got that. I just have a feeling that the Scaling section is about a paragraph or two long and doesn't contain the needed info. I could, of course, be wrong.

I just finished looking over the Paragon template, and I'm liking that idea more and more as a way to upgrade the demon lords.

I hope that the demon lords are at least CR 21, though. Having them be on exactly the same level as a balor does create some logic problems, especially with demons.

The Paragon template is my all-time FAVORITE template. Talk about ubering a creature straight into epic, that bad-boy does the works!

I, too, am thinking of adding the Paragon template to all the demon princes. They are supposed to be the "highest quality demons" after all?

When BoVD first came out, we were excited to see Asmodeus in 3E write-up. Hearing so much about him, we were wondering how powerful this guy would be. CR 50? CR 60? maybe CR 100?

Eh, when we saw CR 32, I was disappointed and my friend laughed so hard. Then he told the other guys, and Asmodeus has been a laughing stock ever since that day, with words like "Elminster's CR is higher than the Lord of all the Hells!" and such. Pretty disheartening if you ask me. They'll never take Asmodeus seriously now, until I uber him to CR 100 through HD advancement, class levels and the Paragon template, possibly even Salient Divine abilities as if he had a certain Divine Rank but doesn't receive the other quirks of having a Divine Rank.

 

[Shade]

Speaking from personal experience, applying the paragon template to them works very well.