Hospitaller balanced?

[Apok]

Trying to get this thread a little back on topic, the Hospitlar is basically a Field Medic. They go into extremely dangerous situations to provide healing and comfort to the wounded. I typically use them as military "special units" associated with a church of healing. Their major drawback is their Code of Behavior.

Basically, if your player plays a Hospitlar like your typical bloodthirsty adventurer, he's got the concept completely wrong. The Hospitlar is a healer and a physician. Basically, he's a band-aid that can kick arse and take punishment.

"What makes that different from any Joe Average cleric" you ask? The Code. The Hospitlar is bound to heal those in need, whereas most clerics can give or deny their healing gifts as they see fit. Unless you're talking about a cleric of a Healing Deity, they don't have to heal anybody. Hospitlar's do. While this code might not seem like much of a restriction at first, it can lead to lots of fun DM side-plots. Travelling through a town with lots of sick/wounded? Gotta stop & help. Battlefield littered with bodies? Gotta check for survivors. Meet some poor wounded schmuck on the roadside? Gotta give him some aid. It may not seem like much at first but it adds up. If your player ignores the duties and obligations associated w/ his PrC then you're definitely letting him get away with too much. The Hospitlar is on the powerful side of the PrC scale but easily workable if you don't ignore the roleplaying aspect.

Edit; grammar & typos

 

[Spatula]

Arcane Trickster - d4 hitpoints, wizard BAB, only 4 skillpoints per level, no rogue special abilities... that's a fair number of things to lose. Basically all the class gets is wizard + sneak attack. Taking 5/5/10 wizard/rogue/AT levels, you'll have +10 BAB. Whoop-tee f'ing doo. Not exactly a combat king here. +11 BAB if you got 4 rogue 6 wizard.

Who said it was a combat king? Now compare the 5/5/10 AT to a 10/10 rogue/wizard. The AT has 3 extra dice of sneak attack, 5 extra spellcasting levels, the ability to use rogue skills at range, the ability to declare normal attacks as sneak attacks, and has better reflex and will saves. The R/W can't be flanked, has 5 more hit points, +2 BAB, and 1 rogue special. And some more skill points, but the AT can buy rogue and wizard skills as class skills every level, wheras the R/W has to buy skills at cross-class rates in order to keep them maxed out.

Or compare the AT to a 5/15 R/W. The R/W has 2 metamagic feats vs. 5 sneak attack dice, better reflex saves, better skills, and the AT special abilities. The 15/5 R/W has better uncanny dodge, 2 rogue specials, 10 more hit points, +3 BAB, better rogue skills vs. *10* more spellcasting levels, better will saves, and the AT special abilities.

If you're already playing a rogue/wizard, you'd have to be stupid to not take the class. There's not even any particular role-playing flavor attached to it that might keep some players out (like, say, the Hospitaller!), it's just a big bag of bonuses.

 

[Chun-tzu]

Trying to get this thread a little back on topic, the Hospitlar is basically a Field Medic. They go into extremely dangerous situations to provide healing and comfort to the wounded. I typically use them as military "special units" associated with a church of healing. Their major drawback is their Code of Behavior.

Apok is right. The problem with this, though, is that from a mechanical perspective, that's not what the Hospitaler does at all! The Hospitaler is no better at healing than a Cleric or Paladin. A Cleric Hospitaler gets increased(!) fighting ability, and a focus on Mounted Combat that does not fit.

There are two problems with this prestige class. First, it's one of the more poorly balanced classes. Second, the mechanics do not really fit the description of their role. The class should be renamed something else, or should be given abilities that better suit its role.

 

[Chun-tzu]

If you're already playing a rogue/wizard, you'd have to be stupid to not take the class. There's not even any particular role-playing flavor attached to it that might keep some players out (like, say, the Hospitaller!), it's just a big bag of bonuses.

That's not a problem exclusive to the Arcane Trickster at all. Many official prestige classes are more powerful (not just more specialized) than core classes. You can't compare a prestige class to a core class this way to determine balance.

That said, I think the Arcane Trickster gets maybe a couple levels of spellcasting too many, and I'd much rather see a rogue/mage prestige class that focuses more on the rogue than the mage side.

 

[The Souljourner]

As Chun-Tzu said, every prestige class that is the merging of two core classes is going to be slightly better than the multiclass alternative in general. You often have to give up several of the more minor abilities in both classes to get the major benefits together. This is what the arcane trickster does. If you're already playing a fighter/mage, why would you not take bladesinger or spellsword? If you're playing a mounted combat fighter, why would you ever not take Cavalier? Prestige classes are better than core classes. They're supposed to be.

Now back to the Hospitaler - If you actually read the description they're not combat medics running around healing the sick. They protect people on pilgrimages (thus the mounted combat... generally you don't alk for any significant distance) and guard temples, relics, etc etc. Their job is to protect, not heal, so the fighter feats and BAB make sense. The problem is, they didn't balance it out with anything. They should probably lose a few spellcaster levels in there somewhere, and lose turn undead.

Problem is, it looks like they were designing it for Paladins, and didn't think about clerics.

-The Souljourner

 

[Stalker0]

My problem with Prcs is tht WOTC seems to dislike the ideas of adding drawbacks to special abilities. While you see it once in a while, most abilities can be used without drawback

The do add drawbacks in the form of codes, but again that creates problems for role-playing.

So when you keep adding special abilities, and don't add effective drawbacks, eventually your going to encounter over powered classes.

 

[Spatula]

That's not a problem exclusive to the Arcane Trickster at all. Many official prestige classes are more powerful (not just more specialized) than core classes. You can't compare a prestige class to a core class this way to determine balance.

Then how should you determine balance? The only measuring stick that exists is to compare what the prestige class gives you vs. what you lose by taking it, possibly factoring in the requirements of the class if they are unusual.

 

[Spatula]

As Chun-Tzu said, every prestige class that is the merging of two core classes is going to be slightly better than the multiclass alternative in general. You often have to give up several of the more minor abilities in both classes to get the major benefits together. This is what the arcane trickster does. If you're already playing a fighter/mage, why would you not take bladesinger or spellsword?

Bladesinger - because the class has its own spell progression, as opposed to adding to your existing spellcasting levels. They do get some bonus feats, but from a very restricted list.

Spellsword - No particular reason, although the spellsword is only slightly more powerful than what you would have gotten if you had continued as a fighter/wizard, whereas the Arcane Trickster is much more powerful than a rogue/wizard.

If you're playing a mounted combat fighter, why would you ever not take Cavalier? Prestige classes are better than core classes. They're supposed to be.

The cavalier is an example of a prestige class that is specialized, and more powerful within its specialty. The class sacrifices the flexibility of the fighter class in exchange for mounted combat bonuses. It also has roleplaying characteristics (noble lawful knight) that give the class some flavor and keep it from being appropriate for every character. I think it's a decent example of what a prestige class should be.

The issue isn't whether or not a prestige class should be more powerful. But I don't think that prestige classes should be significantly more powerful than the same character without the class.

Now back to the Hospitaler - If you actually read the description they're not combat medics running around healing the sick. They protect people on pilgrimages (thus the mounted combat... generally you don't alk for any significant distance) and guard temples, relics, etc etc. Their job is to protect, not heal, so the fighter feats and BAB make sense. The problem is, they didn't balance it out with anything. They should probably lose a few spellcaster levels in there somewhere, and lose turn undead.

Problem is, it looks like they were designing it for Paladins, and didn't think about clerics.

There's a line in the spells section about hospitaler levels stacking with cleric levels for spellcasting, so apparently they thought about it somewhat. The class doesn't actually seem able to turn undead, the description doesn't mention it other than to say that hospitaler spellcasting levels don't give you better turn undead abilities. There's just that mention of it on the chart... Where's the errata for Defenders of the Faith, anyway?

 

[Chun-tzu]

Then how should you determine balance? The only measuring stick that exists is to compare what the prestige class gives you vs. what you lose by taking it, possibly factoring in the requirements of the class if they are unusual.

Unless you design your own prestige classes, the power level IS raised by prestige classes. So, you can compare the power level to other prestige classes, or you can compare it to core classes and allow for a certain degree of bonuses.

The Arcane Trickster seems fairly balanced, albeit a little overpowered. He's not the spellcaster that a straight wizard or sorcerer is, because he's lost several levels worth of spellcasting ability, and that's a serious penalty. He's not the Rogue that a pure Rogue would be, either, with poorer combat ability, a serious hit in skill points, a need to spend skill points on magic-related skills, and the loss of other Rogue abilities (like special abilities, uncanny dodge).

So what does that leave you with? The Arcane Trickster is a mage/rogue who is clearly behind the party's pure Wizard and Rogue, but still capable of contributing to the party. That seems reasonably balanced to me.

 

[Spatula]

Unless you design your own prestige classes, the power level IS raised by prestige classes. So, you can compare the power level to other prestige classes,

Which prestige classes? The available ones cover a wide range of power and abilities. I could compare just about anything to the Hospitaler and make the other class look good.

or you can compare it to core classes and allow for a certain degree of bonuses.

Okay, and the Arcane Trickster is clearly much more powerful than any kind of core rogue/mage.

<snip Arcane Trickster analysis>

You're comparing the AT to a straight wizard or rogue, not to a multiclass wizard/rogue, which is the starting point for the prestige class.

http://www.montecook.com/arch_dmonly9.html
http://www.montecook.com/arch_dmonly10.html

These are some articles that Monte Cook wrote on designing prestige classes that I basically agree with, and he explains what I'm trying to get across probably much better than I can. Some snippets:

When balancing prestige class abilities, the number one way to look at it is to ask yourself: If a character didn't take this class, where would he be and what could he do? Then compare your answer to the things your prestige class can do.

So you can see how one goes about balancing. Determine the character that gets there the quickest and then compare the four aspects of the prestige class (delineated above) to what the character would have gotten by staying in his or her original class(es). That's why it's so important to determine starting level. If the a class's requirements can't be reached until say, 8th level, its special abilities ought to be better than one a character can reach at 5th. Characters don't always take a prestige class at its lowest possible level, but you have to assume that they will to get a good balance.