Hot Pursuit

[barsoomcore]

These rules (because I realised I should mention this just AFTER I hit "Post Quick Reply") don't try to model a chase as a path travelled through a map or a pre-defined terrain. Or at least, not real well.

They try to model chases the way chases happen in the movies. Watch that great sequence in the middle of Raiders sometime and tell me if you think you could draw a map of that chase route that wouldn't make people giggle.

• They're in the open desert, a little ways from Cairo
• They're running through dense palm trees and pools of water
• They're in an ENORMOUS CANYON (just long enough for the jeep to plunge to its doom)
• They're in the open desert again
• They're in Cairo

Yeah, right. VERY realistic. But it works in the movie because you're not worrying about the geographic mechanics, you're worrying about whether or not Indy can get inside the truck.

My hope is that the chases people run with this system are like that -- dramatic, full of thrilling moments and chances for PC glory.

 

[Desdichado]

I'm sure being a passenger isn't quite fun in a chase (as you have less to do unless you're firing at your persuers), but there's enough to keep occupied. In fact, I see many more possible maneuvers brewing in my head right now.

I have (but have not yet read) the final product, but from the "beta test" ruleset, I remember thinking almost the opposite; the driver has to do all the driving, while the passengers can do all kinds of cool things. Like attack, for instance, or jump from one vehicle to another, or whatnot.

Then again, I wasn't really picturing all of the scenarios in my head; I had something similar to the sample chase in mind, with a coupla PCs on a chariot/stagecoach/etc. where they could do all kinds of things. In a helicopter or spaceship, or even a car to a certain extent, that wouldn't be as true, though.

 

[Yuan-Ti]

I just read the rules and really, really, REALLY like them. I am a fan of the Spycraft rules, but as has been noted they do not port that easily into other d20 games and settings. I have read everything up to the Examples part on page 30 and have ideas already for including these rules in my first Grim Tales adventure.

I just wish these rules had been around when the party was chasing a Pict through the woods in my Conan campaign.

You roll for obstacles for each initiative count (that is 'driving' a vehicle, running, etc), but how does that work if the first guy gets nothing, and the second guy gets a giant obstacle (moat), the 3rd guy gets nothing, and the 4th guy gets a creature.

It seems that obstacles should be a 1 time per round thing and everyone has to work around it (ie: there's a building up ahead, and ALL participants encounter it, not just #2 or #4, but not 1 or 3).

I was just going to ask the same thing. The obstacle rules are unclear in that it seems like we need clarification on who in the chase needs to make a roll. I realize we need to "use our noodle" but some guidelines would have been nice. For example, if the prey jumps a ditch (Moat obstacle), surely the pursuers -- regardless of their distance -- have to do something about the ditch and cannot simply ignore it. On page 12, under Simple Obstacles, it specifically says other drivers can effectively ignore it. Under Complex Obstacles in the last paragraph of page 13 it implies that some size of complex obstacles affect everyone at point blank range. This still leaves the question of people at short range ignoring the Moat. The example on page 24 makes no mention of anyone except the carriage needing to deal with the ditch...

I have some other questions as well, however...

Page7: "HP disregards the ranges between the various pursuers." It doesn't seem to to me, so I wonder what was meant here.

page 15: references to the vehicle out of control checking for obstacles on "the previous driver's turn." Explain. I thought drivers checked on their own turn. So why would an out of control vehicle check on another driver's turn (and have to time travel to do it???). Or do you mean apply the previous check and do not conduct a new one? But with modifiers, you would have to remember what you rolled. Why not a new roll?

Page 17: Table 5-1... the range for Head 'em Off should be "any" including, I believe, Out of Chase altogether. The range for Lose 'em is listed as "Any" although the description for the maneuver has no range listing. (see below)

Page 17: Breakaway maneuver DC listed as 20. The example on page 9 says the DC for this maneuver is 15. Also, there are variable DCs given for pursuers if the maneuver is successful, but on page 9 the example says both pursuers (at different ranges) make DC15 checks.

Page 19: Lose 'Em. What is the range for this? Can you really lose a cop car at point blank on even a crowded highway using this maneuver? What about a foot chase through a crowd? If the pursuer is at point blank range (close enough for melee attacks), can you vanish in thin air?

Page 20: Does Pace cancel the effects of Evasion?

Page 21: Should the damage resulting from Jump Clear be referenced under the Leap Aboard maneuver, where it says: "If the check is missed by more than 5, the acting character is on the ground and out of the chase." Shouldn't we add, "and in a world of hurt." Depending on the speed of course...

Page 26: The descriptions of the pre-modern vehicles, carriage and cart are given for 2 horses. My first thought is that 2 might be the exception. Does it change things if they only have one?

Finally, maybe I am dense, but how much damage do passengers take in a Crash? Page 28 seems to imply that a passenger in a vehicle with full cover (defined as? how much cover does a passenger car provide?) takes no damage from a crash, or even a collision, which seems wrong unless a passenger car provides only half cover or so. What if the vehicle is destroyed, does this cover multiplier still apply?

Anyway, although these are a lot of questions, I think the system is great. I define great as: easy to use, elegant, and comprehensive.

 

[jezter6]

Page7: "HP disregards the ranges between the various pursuers." It doesn't seem to to me, so I wonder what was meant here.

Well, what I think that means is, nobody really keeps track of how far the second cop car chasing the fugitive is from the 1st, or 3rd, or 8th OTHER cop cars, they are really only tracked by how far back they are from the fugitive.

Finally, maybe I am dense, but how much damage do passengers take in a Crash? Page 28 seems to imply that a passenger in a vehicle with full cover (defined as? how much cover does a passenger car provide?) takes no damage from a crash, or even a collision, which seems wrong unless a passenger car provides only half cover or so. What if the vehicle is destroyed, does this cover multiplier still apply?

Under the descriptions of the vehicles (at least in the SRD) it gives a listing of what cover that particular vehicle type offers. 3/4 is standard pretty much for cars, 0 for motorcycles, 1/2 for being in the bed of a pickup truck....etc

 

[Yuan-Ti]

Okay, yeah, I think Spycraft says the same thing about relative positions.

Right, I knew I had seen it somewhere. Still, there is room for it on the list of vehicles, maybe it should be included for a 2nd edition?

 

[jezter6]

I agree with adding it to the table, but whipping up a new table is probably quick in excel and you can customize it to suit your game a little better.

I have (but have not yet read) the final product, but from the "beta test" ruleset, I remember thinking almost the opposite; the driver has to do all the driving, while the passengers can do all kinds of cool things. Like attack, for instance, or jump from one vehicle to another, or whatnot.

Well, there are certainly good things for the passenger to do IF the persuit closes to short range. My guess is likely in most games the PCs will be the chasees and the NPCs the chasers. Unless you're firing back at them, the best you can really do is sit and watch, or fight the driver of your own vehicle for control.

Now if a majority of the persuits happen with the PCs chasing the bad guys, and they can get in close, sure...there are suddenly plenty of options...jump onto their pickup truck, climb thru a window, wrestle for control, make it crash, jump clear.. (not all of them are maneuvers from HP)

Like I said, I have a few other things I think that would make for additional maneuvers. Barsoom, if you ever plan a second version or something with additional maneuvers, let me know.

 

[barsoomcore]

Whew! Some analysis! Let me try and address your concerns...

The obstacle rules are unclear in that it seems like we need clarification on who in the chase needs to make a roll. I realize we need to "use our noodle" but some guidelines would have been nice. For example, if the prey jumps a ditch (Moat obstacle), surely the pursuers -- regardless of their distance -- have to do something about the ditch and cannot simply ignore it.

Well, that's not ALWAYS going to be true. I guess I could have put lots more caveats and examples and stuff in the book, but to my thinking the real value was in the pure rules as much as possible.

You could absolutely rule that all pursuers must make a Jump maneuver to follow the prey over the ditch or lose a range category. But you could also say that the drivers further back can adjust their direction to find a crossing point, or can flank the prey until an easier crossing presents itself and thus don't have to make any Jump attempts.

Again, the rules aren't very good for representing a chase as a line being traversed across a map. In fact, they were specifically designed so that you DIDN'T have to map out the chase territory.

Page7: "HP disregards the ranges between the various pursuers." It doesn't seem to to me, so I wonder what was meant here.

It means exactly what it says. Ranges between pursuers are disregarded -- only the ranges between each pursuer and the prey is considered.

I tend towards an extremely terse style in rules presentation (whereas in more conversational writing I'm downright verbose), so apologies for not providing more meat.

page 15: references to the vehicle out of control checking for obstacles on "the previous driver's turn." Explain.

When a vehicle is out-of-control, the person who just failed the Crash check is no longer the driver of the vehicle (hence, it's out-of-control). This would ordinarily mean that the vehicle is in no danger of ever encountering an obstacle, since there isn't anyone on whose turn an obstacle check is made.

In this case, obstacle checks continue to be made on the turn of the person who, until the vehicle went out-of-control, was the driver. The previous driver. This state exists until somebody gets control of the vehicle, at which point they become the driver and obstacle checks are then made on their turn.

Page 17: Table 5-1... the range for Head 'em Off should be "any" including, I believe, Out of Chase altogether.

Well, it's a fine distinction. But technically if you're choosing Head 'Em Off, you're electing to drop out of the chase.

The range for Lose 'em is listed as "Any" although the description for the maneuver has no range listing.

Page 17: Breakaway maneuver DC listed as 20. The example on page 9 says the DC for this maneuver is 15.

Yeah, those errors were identified by Berandor in the other thread and will be addressed in the upcoming revision.

Also, there are variable DCs given for pursuers if the maneuver is successful, but on page 9 the example says both pursuers (at different ranges) make DC15 checks.

At least one full round must have elapsed between the previous point in the example and this one (since we ended the previous one on Davis' turn and started the current one also on his turn), so there's no reason to assume the ranges have remained the same.

Page 19: Lose 'Em. What is the range for this? Can you really lose a cop car at point blank on even a crowded highway using this maneuver? What about a foot chase through a crowd? If the pursuer is at point blank range (close enough for melee attacks), can you vanish in thin air?

A range-based penalty seems like a good idea to me. I'll see if we can get that into the revision.

Page 20: Does Pace cancel the effects of Evasion?

Pace only cancels out the penalties due to Speed Category.

Page 21: Should the damage resulting from Jump Clear be referenced under the Leap Aboard maneuver, where it says: "If the check is missed by more than 5, the acting character is on the ground and out of the chase." Shouldn't we add, "and in a world of hurt." Depending on the speed of course...

Page 26: The descriptions of the pre-modern vehicles, carriage and cart are given for 2 horses. My first thought is that 2 might be the exception. Does it change things if they only have one?

Yeah, probably. Somebody ambitious could go do the research, I guess. I'll be watching action movies.

Finally, maybe I am dense, but how much damage do passengers take in a Crash? Page 28 seems to imply that a passenger in a vehicle with full cover (defined as? how much cover does a passenger car provide?) takes no damage from a crash, or even a collision, which seems wrong unless a passenger car provides only half cover or so. What if the vehicle is destroyed, does this cover multiplier still apply?

The cover details for vehicles are listed in the Modern SRD. I probably should have included that information in these tables, but it's all online and easy to look up.

http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/modern/roarerbull/EquipmentVehicles.php

Anyway, although these are a lot of questions, I think the system is great. I define great as: easy to use, elegant, and comprehensive.

I welcome questions. This is how things get better. I really appreciate you putting all this thought and consideration into these rules of mine, and I hope you get a lot of fun and excitement from running chases with them.

If I've said anything that seems flippant or inconsiderate, it wasn't meant. I'm a pretty sarcastic and offhand sort of poster, but I'm honestly very grateful for all your thoughts and notions. Post more if you got 'em!

 

[Yuan-Ti]

Thanks, Barsoomcore!

 

[GMSkarka]

Just a quick bump to let folks know that the revised edition was uploaded today and is now live--so the corrected version is the one you'll get.

(And, everyone who has already purchased it just had a copy of the revised edition sent to them as well---assuming that their account at RPGNow is set to accept email from vendors. If not, then take this as your notice: you can use the original link to download a new copy)

 

[Yuan-Ti]

Thanks, Adamant! PDFs were tailor-made for this kind of customer service. It's nice that companies like yours actually take advantage of that to revise and correct products. Thanks again!