D&D General "Hot" take: Aesthetically-pleasing rules are highly overvalued

pemerton

Legend
@pemerton Frankly I would say that Traveler DOES effectively have a universal system. Anything a PC does is invariably resolved as a skill check, there really is no other 'in game' mechanic.

<snip>

I think this is an important distinction when talking about 'universal' sorts of mechanics, as it is really only those systems that adjudicate what happens when you play that are really under discussion in terms of being unified presenting an advantage.
I agree that we're talking here about action resolution.

1977 Classic Traveller has the following two evasion mechanics (both in Book 1):

If two parties encounter without surprise, either may attempt to escape, imme-diately (before any combat or contact occurs). Boll 9+ to escape (DM of –1 if short range, +1 if medium range, +2 if long range, +3 if very long range encounter). (p 28)

Throw 10+ to escape on contact and avoid attack. Throw 8+ to avoid being hit if escape fails. Alternate these throws until escape succeeds, or the craft is hit. DM: +1 per level of expertise on both rolls. (pp 17-18, under the Ship's Boat skill description)​

When the PCs were escaping/evading orbital bombardment in their ATVs, I used the Ship's Boat rules, allowing also an adverse DM for the Forward Observer skill of the enemy NPC calling down the fire.

I subsequently merged the two above mechanics, with 10+ as the basic throw required and just adjusting the DMs in the first system (ie no DM for short range, and +2, +3, +4 for medium, long and very long ranges).

This is the sort of thing I have in mind when I characterise Classic Traveller as based around "subsystems" rather than a universal framework. Other mechanical subsystems are the throws to avoid misjump and drive failure during starship operation; the check to encounter a patron after a week of hanging out in likely places for such a meeting (DM +1 if Carousing-1+); the throw to survive travel in a cold berth; the throw to hit in personal combat; the throws to avoid things going wrong when wearing a vacc suit; etc.

Some of the subsystems that I use aren't expressed as coherently as they might be in the original rulebooks - eg the rules for dealing with officials are scattered across five or six places (discussions of law level in Book 3, and Admin, Bribery, Forgery and Streetwise skill descriptions in Book 1), and I've prepared my own rules document that brings them all together.

To some extent these subsystems can be analogised to the framework of "moves" in PbtA games. But they don't have the same standard pattern of roll, add a stat between -2 and +3, and then establish a consequence based on an overall result of 6-, 7-9 or 10+. And they tend to be at the more prescribed end of consequences.

To take a different comparator, these subsystems are quite different from those found in Gygax's AD&D. They have a type of modularity, and a similarity of very basic structure (2D throw plus dice modifiers), which tends to facilitate the sort of integration and extrapolation that I've described in this post. (And maybe that's all you've got in mind in describing the system as "universal".) Whereas AD&D's subystems are a total nightmare, and have terrible points of friction nearly everywhere one looks (eg how does Move Silently interact with surprise rules? is searching a statue for a concealed cavity more like searching for secret doors - ie anyone can do it and elves are better - or more like searching for a trap - ie only thieves et al can do it and betterness is a function of class level?)

None of the above is criticism of Traveller, by the way (cf AD&D, which I am criticising). I really like Classic Traveller - at the moment it's one of my top three systems. It's just an attempt at accurate description.
 

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pemerton

Legend
Your final point is an interesting one, because it cuts against as well as for. If the structure of the skill challenge is used, then a 'knock-down solution' is not an exit to the challenge as the rules present. Both approaches must know when to abandon the challenge framework if the fiction dictates -- it's not just traditional approaches that have this issue. That those familiar with narrative play probably already know this principle doesn't mean that the skill challenge, as presented, doesn't provide this guidance to either side.
Apocalypse World has very clear rules about this:

Countdown clocks are both descriptive and prescriptive. Descriptive: when something you’ve listed happens, advance the clock to that point. Prescriptive: when you advance the clock otherwise, it causes the things you’ve listed. (p 43)​
The players’ character sheets, like your front countdowns, are both prescriptive and descriptive. Prescriptive: changes to the character’s sheet mean changes to the character’s fictional circumstances and capabilities; that’s the game’s experience and improvement rules, following. Descriptive too: when the character’s fictional circumstances or capabilities change naturally, within the character’s fictional world, the player can and should change her character sheet to match.​
Bran bolts a machinegun onto his truck. I tell his player its stats.
The holding takes in refugees, and some of them naturally gravitate to Keeler’s gang, doubling its size. I tell Keeler’s player to change the gang from small to medium.
Uncle invests time and scratch in improving his holding, building up and armoring its walls. I give his gang the appropriate 2-armor bonus when they fight to defend it.
Fair’s fair, though!​
Bish’s ambulance-infirmary gets blown up. I tell his player to cross it out.
Uncle’s manufactory workers rise up, overthrowing their overseers and seizing the manufactory for themselves. I tell Uncle’s player he’s lost the gig and its surplus.
The warlord for whom Wilson runs compound defense winds up at the wrong end of a sniper’s sights. I tell Wilson’s player that he can still work the gig if he wants, but for no profit. Nobody’s paying. {pp 178-79)​
Marvel Heroic RP is pretty clear the other way round, for instance:
if you want some kind of gadget, gear, tool, or other trapping that belongs to your field of Specialty, you can spend a PP to access it as a stunt or as a resource die, as long as the situation makes that reasonable. (OM 97)​

I run 4e skill challenges more like MHRP than AW. A "knockdown solution" is a check within the challenge, but assuming that the challenge remains on-foot (ie that nothing has happened to suddenly make this thing completely uninteresting, thus vitiating the earlier decision about heft/pacing that informed a stipulation of its complexity; and that the PCs aren't just walking away) then the "knockdown solution" can't, in itself, end the challenge. Its success - which might be auto (esp if powered by a ritual or daily power, as per the rules) - doesn't stop me as GM narrating additional complications or demands in the situation or whatever else makes sense to keep the scene alive.

These different approaches give a different sort of weight to the fictional positioning/mechanics/consequences interface. (And even AW sometimes uses the MHRP approach, eg it is the most common approach in establishing the parameters for the upshot of successful moves.)
 
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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Apocalypse World has very clear rules about this:

Countdown clocks are both descriptive and prescriptive. Descriptive: when something you’ve listed happens, advance the clock to that point. Prescriptive: when you advance the clock otherwise, it causes the things you’ve listed. (p 43)​
The players’ character sheets, like your front countdowns, are both prescriptive and descriptive. Prescriptive: changes to the character’s sheet mean changes to the character’s fictional circumstances and capabilities; that’s the game’s experience and improvement rules, following. Descriptive too: when the character’s fictional circumstances or capabilities change naturally, within the character’s fictional world, the player can and should change her character sheet to match.​
Bran bolts a machinegun onto his truck. I tell his player its stats.
The holding takes in refugees, and some of them naturally gravitate to Keeler’s gang, doubling its size. I tell Keeler’s player to change the gang from small to medium.
Uncle invests time and scratch in improving his holding, building up and armoring its walls. I give his gang the appropriate 2-armor bonus when they fight to defend it.
Fair’s fair, though!​
Bish’s ambulance-infirmary gets blown up. I tell his player to cross it out.
Uncle’s manufactory workers rise up, overthrowing their overseers and seizing the manufactory for themselves. I tell Uncle’s player he’s lost the gig and its surplus.
The warlord for whom Wilson runs compound defense winds up at the wrong end of a sniper’s sights. I tell Wilson’s player that he can still work the gig if he wants, but for no profit. Nobody’s paying. {pp 178-79)​
Marvel Heroic RP is pretty clear the other way round, for instance:
if you want some kind of gadget, gear, tool, or other trapping that belongs to your field of Specialty, you can spend a PP to access it as a stunt or as a resource die, as long as the situation makes that reasonable. (OM 97)​

I run 4e skill challenges more like MHRP than AW. A "knockdown solution" is a check within the challenge, but assuming that the challenge remains on-foot (ie that nothing has happened to suddenly make this thing completely uninteresting, thus vitiating the earlier decision about heft/pacing that informed a stipulation of its complexity; and that the PCs aren't just walking away) then the "knockdown solution" can't, in itself, end the challenge. Its success - which might be auto (esp if powered by a ritual or daily power, as per the rules) - doesn't stop me as GM narrating additional complications or demands in the situation or whatever else makes sense to keep the scene alive.

These different approaches give a different sort of weight to the fictional positioning/mechanics/consequences interface. (And even AW sometimes uses the MHRP approach, eg it is the most common approach in establishing the parameters for the upshot of successful moves.)
Right, which is exactly the point I was making in the later parts of the paragraph lead you quoted: the skill challenge framework in 4e doesn't teach you these things, you've brought them in from other places. I absolutely disagree that the 4e skill challenge system is incompatible with traditional GM-decides resolution methods. 4e itself shows this with the many printed adventure skill challenges being essentially upgraded versions of 3e's complex skill checks -- just as scripted and pre-ordered. I think it's very hard to run this kind of skill challenge, and it involves an almost required use of Force, but even so, this is how it was presented, especially if you lacked the awareness of other approaches.

I mean, for a modern example of traditional approaches in skill challenged, Matt Colville has a few videos discussing skill challenges where they are pre-scripted event chains. I was disappointed to find this still being presented, as I find fiction-forward approaches much better, but there you go.
 

I apply the relevant adjudication framework. For instance, when the players in our Prince Valiant game wanted the bard/performer PC to disrupt a trial by making fun of the prosecutor and calling for the pet cat to be summonsed as a witness, I set a difficulty and called for a check using the appropriate skill (Poetry, from memory). The check succeeded and so the trial was delayed as the players wanted, and a party sent out to find the cat and bring it to the court.

From my point of view, a good system has a resolution framework - in the case of Prince Valiant, that's a general framework plus appropriate skills - to handle the sort of stuff that can be expected to come up given tone and genre.

In Classic Traveller, which doesn't have a general framework, I look to the various subsystems. Eg when the PCs had to escape fire from orbit in their ATVs, I adapted the small craft evasion rules.
I don't think I understand.

You have stated that B/X and 5E don't have a general resolution framework.

Yet you describe Prince Valiant as having a framework of making a check using an appropriate skill. B/X and 5E both possess such resolution frameworks. 5E has ability checks (with the application of an appropriate skill), B/X has 'there's always a chance' where you roll under the relevant ability score.

I think I'm missing the difference in why one system is valued where the others are eschewed.

As far as Traveller is concerned, I haven't played it years so I don't remember much about it. But it isn't really relevant to me here.


The essence of a skill challenge is a situation in which the PCs find themselves, in which from both the narrative and causal points of view there is meaningful uncertainty that the PCs will get what they want. The GM has to decide how big a deal the situation is - that determines the number of successes required before 3 failures.

Managing declared checks, narration of consequences etc can all be done during play.

Here are links to two examples from actual play.
If something comes up in the middle of play and you have to come up with a skill challenge on the fly, then how does that work?

My assumption is that based on the in-game situation, you would decide the difficulty, decide what skills can be used, and decide what skills are primary and secondary, decide the DCs for the skills, and then decide the effects that secondary skills provide.

How is this any different than a GM taking the in-game situation and making a ruling? Or a GM deciding what skill can be used and what the difficulty is in 5E (or B/X for that matter). With a skill challenge, the DM is still deciding skill DCs, what skills are allowable, and what their effects are.

My opinion of skill challenges is not a positive one. I'm sure they work for people who enjoy them. I've never had a satisfactory experience running one when I ran 4e. I simply don't see the value in them.
 

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
There is a fundamental difference between skill challenges in 4e and most noncombat challenges in 5e. In 5e at no point is the DM constrained in their narration by the rules of the game. In 4e once the scene has been framed and challenge has begun the DM must honor the results of the challenge. There are judgment calls you make a long the way, but once the stage has been set you are part of the same game as the players. Under the way 5e handles ability checks they decide what happens period.

This is a huge deal to me. I mean this is worlds apart. You can always rule in a more hygienic and transparent way, but like you do not have to. Those constraints are what let us all experience the story/game together. They make the tension real. It's a big part of what separates playing a roleplaying game over just roleplaying to me. There are places where I personally judgement to apply, but if you are going to roll those bones I think it should be meaningful. It's a big part of why I prefer B/X to 5e personally.
 

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
I am about to get a little persnickety. The player moves in Apocalypse World do not resolve a damn thing. They tell you what happens when you do a thing in the fiction. The rules of the game actually tell you like when they should be invoked. This is different from Blades in the Dark where which rules you utilize are on a degree of GM judgement (although once invoked those rules do constrain the GM). If you do it you do it.

Apocalypse World in particular does not lay out best practices for the GM in the same way Blades does. I dearly love both games, but there is a fundamental difference here. AW provides instructions you are expected to follow just like B/X provides clear instructions. Apocalypse World is emphatic that the MC chapter contains rules. It tells you the things you always do as a GM. It is not advice. Break the player expectations for when to use soft moves versus hard moves and they are fully right to correct you just as if you broke any other rule.
 

pemerton

Legend
The player moves in Apocalypse World do not resolve a damn thing. They tell you what happens when you do a thing in the fiction. The rules of the game actually tell you like when they should be invoked.

<snip>

If you do it you do it.
Can you elaborate a bit? I'm not sure how you're thinking of the word "resolve".

I would say that, in AW, a player talks about his/her PC drawing a gun on some guards and telling them to get the heck out of the way. This triggers Go Aggro - if you do it, you do it - and the result of the dice roll + adds tells us what happens - eg if it's 10+ the guards either get out of the way or get shot.

I would say that that resolves the (immediate) situation, of course "snowballing" into a new situation. But I'm not quite sure if/where I'm disagreeing with you.
 

pemerton

Legend
If something comes up in the middle of play and you have to come up with a skill challenge on the fly, then how does that work?

My assumption is that based on the in-game situation, you would decide the difficulty, decide what skills can be used, and decide what skills are primary and secondary, decide the DCs for the skills, and then decide the effects that secondary skills provide.

How is this any different than a GM taking the in-game situation and making a ruling? Or a GM deciding what skill can be used and what the difficulty is in 5E (or B/X for that matter). With a skill challenge, the DM is still deciding skill DCs, what skills are allowable, and what their effects are.

The DCs come of a DC-by-level chart, with fairly precise guidance about which column to pick from. The players initiate skill use, because they are the ones who declare actions: see eg DMG pp 74-75:

Sometimes, a player tells you, “I want to make a Diplomacy check to convince the duke that helping us is in his best interest.” That’s great—the player has told you what she’s doing and what skill she’s using to do it. Other times, a player will say, “I want to make a Diplomacy check.” In such a case, prompt the player to give more information about how the character is using that skill. Sometimes, characters do the opposite: “I want to scare the duke into helping us.” It’s up to you, then, to decide which skill the character is using and call for the appropriate check. . . .

In skill challenges, players will come up with uses for skills that you didn’t expect to play a role. Try not to say no. . . . If a player asks, “Can I use Diplomacy?” you should ask what exactly the character might be doing to help the party survive in the uninhabited sandy wastes by using that skill.​

But the fundamental difference from B/X or 5e is as @Campbell has described: the skill challenge framework is a binding resolution framework that generates consequences on the way through and yields finality of outcome.

I don't think I understand.

You have stated that B/X and 5E don't have a general resolution framework.

Yet you describe Prince Valiant as having a framework of making a check using an appropriate skill. B/X and 5E both possess such resolution frameworks. 5E has ability checks (with the application of an appropriate skill), B/X has 'there's always a chance' where you roll under the relevant ability score.

I think I'm missing the difference in why one system is valued where the others are eschewed.
In Prince Valiant there is a general system for simple resolution, and a general system for complex resolution if that is what is desired/appropriate (margin of failure is deducted from the pool - whoever reaches zero in their pool loses). Any skill can oppose any other, because of the uniform framework.

As I posted not far above, B/x and even moreso AD&D don't bear comparison in this respect. In B/X, for instance, how do I resolve a fighter's attempt to stage an ambush by hiding? How does that interact with the thief's Hide in Shadows ability? How does Move Silently relate to the surprise rules? What about the rules for evasion of pursuit? Even in Moldvay's example of "there's always a chance", the rules for falling damage are disregarded. When is that meant to happen? Can a 1st level player make the same appeal to a small chance of stabbing an ogre in the vitals and so winning the fight, without having to engage the to hit and damage rules?

5e isn't quite as lacking in integration of its systems as B/X or AD&D, but it has similar issues. In a running race, for instance, what benefit does a fighter get if his/her player is prepared to expend a use of Action Surge? What happens if one character wants to woo another by singing a song - is it Performance check vs Wisdom save?

Etc.
 

The DCs come of a DC-by-level chart, with fairly precise guidance about which column to pick from. The players initiate skill use, because they are the ones who declare actions: see eg DMG pp 74-75:

Sometimes, a player tells you, “I want to make a Diplomacy check to convince the duke that helping us is in his best interest.” That’s great—the player has told you what she’s doing and what skill she’s using to do it. Other times, a player will say, “I want to make a Diplomacy check.” In such a case, prompt the player to give more information about how the character is using that skill. Sometimes, characters do the opposite: “I want to scare the duke into helping us.” It’s up to you, then, to decide which skill the character is using and call for the appropriate check. . . .​
In skill challenges, players will come up with uses for skills that you didn’t expect to play a role. Try not to say no. . . . If a player asks, “Can I use Diplomacy?” you should ask what exactly the character might be doing to help the party survive in the uninhabited sandy wastes by using that skill.​

But the fundamental difference from B/X or 5e is as @Campbell has described: the skill challenge framework is a binding resolution framework that generates consequences on the way through and yields finality of outcome.
Still not seeing a difference.

5E has DCs by difficulty as well. It also works the same way.

As you mention... "I want to make a Diplomacy Check" and "Can I use Diplomacy" are incomplete player actions and are rejected at my table. I would ask for more information about what the player wants to accomplish. I would require their actual in-game action. I would also require their intent and their assumptions of success. "I want to trick the Duke" isn't enough, for example. I need to know how they want to trick the Duke and for what purpose/outcome?

B/X doesn't have skills. But, I'd approach these things in the same manner. I would get the action, intent, and assumed outcome and apply the rules. Often getting the aforementioned information clarifies the matter. In the case of interacting with the Duke, that would be a Reaction roll. Modified by any situational bonus based on the approach of the player and the in-game situation. If there are no rules that apply, I would make a ruling. I already have a very good understanding of the action, so it is relatively trivial to do so.

I can achieve the same results in adjudicating player actions in 5E and in B/X as you can with skill checks and skill challenges in 4E.

My ruling would look something like this: "You can attempt <intended action>, if you succeed <what you assume happens> if you fail <something else happens>". The outcomes of success and failure will be clearly defined for the player because I know what the player intends and expects. You have the same possibility of consequences and the same finality.

I could ask for a skill check or not. It would depend on the situation... I could just rule that the player automatically succeeds or automatically fails based on the situation at hand. I can make a ruling tailored to the situation at hand without being constrained to satisfy some game mechanic construct.

I handle all of my player rolls this way. Every time I ask for a roll, I need their intent and assumptions and I state their success and fail states. If I can't think of a success and/or a failure for a possible roll, then the roll is not needed to begin with.

I prefer the versatility of making rulings.


In Prince Valiant there is a general system for simple resolution, and a general system for complex resolution if that is what is desired/appropriate (margin of failure is deducted from the pool - whoever reaches zero in their pool loses). Any skill can oppose any other, because of the uniform framework.

As I posted not far above, B/x and even moreso AD&D don't bear comparison in this respect. In B/X, for instance, how do I resolve a fighter's attempt to stage an ambush by hiding? How does that interact with the thief's Hide in Shadows ability? How does Move Silently relate to the surprise rules? What about the rules for evasion of pursuit? Even in Moldvay's example of "there's always a chance", the rules for falling damage are disregarded. When is that meant to happen? Can a 1st level player make the same appeal to a small chance of stabbing an ogre in the vitals and so winning the fight, without having to engage the to hit and damage rules?

5e isn't quite as lacking in integration of its systems as B/X or AD&D, but it has similar issues. In a running race, for instance, what benefit does a fighter get if his/her player is prepared to expend a use of Action Surge? What happens if one character wants to woo another by singing a song - is it Performance check vs Wisdom save?

Etc.
In B/X, if a fighter wanted to stage an ambush, the player of the fighter would describe what actions his character will take to set up the ambush based on the in-game situation and the DM would make a ruling if it would be successful or not. The thief would do the same thing. If the thief wants to use their Hide in Shadows, they may do so. The use or not of Hide in Shadows doesn't change the situation. The thief can prepare an ambush in the same manner as the fighter without consideration of their thief skills.


Surprise is an abstraction. Surprise rolls aren't something players actually do. Players don't say: "I want to roll Surprise against the orcs". Surprise is a roll made by the DM as a part of setting the context for an encounter. It is used when there is a lack of in-game cues to determine if whether one group is aware of another or not.

"There's always a chance" is also not used in the manner you are suggesting. It is a catch-all rule for handling a character doing something. It serves the same function in B/X, as an ability check or a skill check would in 4E or 5E. The rule also states nothing about disregarding falling damage or automatically winning a fight.

Now, if you have a player who is falling and wants to attempt to brace their fall by grabbing onto an awning or use the wall to push himself towards landing on a bail of hay, such that they can lessen the impact and reduce damage, you may want to invoke this rule. You can ask for a Dexterity or Strength roll. (Note the description I used: the player has to describe what action their character wants to take, their intention for taking the action, and their assumption of the outcome). I could not make this ruling without that information so it has to be provided.

In the other situations described above... handling a fighter using action surge in a running race, or wooing someone with song, these are outlier areas that are left to be handled by the GM making a ruling.

In a running race, a GM can look at the in-game situation regarding the race and make a ruling. Does the fighter want to use Action Surge to give them a quick boost of speed? Or are they tapping into their reserves in a marathon? The description of what the player wants to do and their intent needs to be known. The GM can rule based on that intent.

Wooing someone with song would be exactly as you suggest. In 5E it would be a Charisma (Performance) opposed check vs Wisdom. In B/X it would be a Reaction Roll. Before rolling you need to know how the player is doing this ('what song are they singing?"), you also need to know what the player wants out of it (what favor they want from the NPC). Then you can determine and state what happens if you succeed or fail. The GM determines difficulty based on the guidance of the rules and based on their understanding of the NPC that they created and presents the success/fail states. The player then chooses to make the roll.


I see the role of the GM as the arbiter of the game. Every game is different and every situation that develops in a game is unique. It is unique because of the in-game situation, the context of the adventure/module, and even the nature of the people at the table. The best person to determine the outcome of events at the table is the GM. They are the ones with "boots on the ground', so to speak. They have the best information as far as how a situation can be successfully and satisfactorily resolved.
 

I agree that we're talking here about action resolution.

1977 Classic Traveller has the following two evasion mechanics (both in Book 1):

If two parties encounter without surprise, either may attempt to escape, imme-diately (before any combat or contact occurs). Boll 9+ to escape (DM of –1 if short range, +1 if medium range, +2 if long range, +3 if very long range encounter). (p 28)​
Throw 10+ to escape on contact and avoid attack. Throw 8+ to avoid being hit if escape fails. Alternate these throws until escape succeeds, or the craft is hit. DM: +1 per level of expertise on both rolls. (pp 17-18, under the Ship's Boat skill description)​

When the PCs were escaping/evading orbital bombardment in their ATVs, I used the Ship's Boat rules, allowing also an adverse DM for the Forward Observer skill of the enemy NPC calling down the fire.

I subsequently merged the two above mechanics, with 10+ as the basic throw required and just adjusting the DMs in the first system (ie no DM for short range, and +2, +3, +4 for medium, long and very long ranges).

This is the sort of thing I have in mind when I characterise Classic Traveller as based around "subsystems" rather than a universal framework. Other mechanical subsystems are the throws to avoid misjump and drive failure during starship operation; the check to encounter a patron after a week of hanging out in likely places for such a meeting (DM +1 if Carousing-1+); the throw to survive travel in a cold berth; the throw to hit in personal combat; the throws to avoid things going wrong when wearing a vacc suit; etc.

Some of the subsystems that I use aren't expressed as coherently as they might be in the original rulebooks - eg the rules for dealing with officials are scattered across five or six places (discussions of law level in Book 3, and Admin, Bribery, Forgery and Streetwise skill descriptions in Book 1), and I've prepared my own rules document that brings them all together.

To some extent these subsystems can be analogised to the framework of "moves" in PbtA games. But they don't have the same standard pattern of roll, add a stat between -2 and +3, and then establish a consequence based on an overall result of 6-, 7-9 or 10+. And they tend to be at the more prescribed end of consequences.

To take a different comparator, these subsystems are quite different from those found in Gygax's AD&D. They have a type of modularity, and a similarity of very basic structure (2D throw plus dice modifiers), which tends to facilitate the sort of integration and extrapolation that I've described in this post. (And maybe that's all you've got in mind in describing the system as "universal".) Whereas AD&D's subystems are a total nightmare, and have terrible points of friction nearly everywhere one looks (eg how does Move Silently interact with surprise rules? is searching a statue for a concealed cavity more like searching for secret doors - ie anyone can do it and elves are better - or more like searching for a trap - ie only thieves et al can do it and betterness is a function of class level?)

None of the above is criticism of Traveller, by the way (cf AD&D, which I am criticising). I really like Classic Traveller - at the moment it's one of my top three systems. It's just an attempt at accurate description.
Right, so, I think there is a bit of a continuum. 4e for instance is pretty far in the universal direction, everything is a check (there are a few knits in there about slightly different flavors of checks, and then the question of 'free checks' vs 'SC checks' which have slightly different context). As you note, Traveler is a bit 'looser' in that it doesn't really make explicit that all these things are 'skill checks' though they ARE in effect. There was also a bit of ambiguity in Traveler about difficulty. Is there such a thing as a 'difficulty level' or not (IE a value you have meet to succeed). In effect there is, and sometimes things are specified that way (your evasion example), but other times they just sort of assume 8+ succeeds and specify modifiers. It was early days, and in fact Traveler is THE ORIGINAL 'skill based game' AFAIK. It is still pretty darn close to being fully universal, enough that you can treat it that way. As you note, any given situation can 'map in' considerations from elsewhere, unlike your example of searching a statue in D&D (which is a perfect example of the problem with Gygax's design).
 

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