Hot take: Most of Breaking Bad was actually boring filler

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

For some there is never too much of a good thing even when a good thing isn't especially good.

Like sex and pizza in that, I suppose.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Except that's not what he's saying.

You're being pretty dismissive of different points of view on this thread.

If I don't think a shoplifting subplot did much for Breaking Bad, then I must not like character studies.

If Gled thinks Walter White's journey doesn't merit a five-season treatment, then he must be saying that his motivations are a single, not terribly representative sentence.

Come on, man.

Walter White's journey was largely about the mask he wore -- even with himself -- being torn away and realizing that he liked being a ruthless criminal. The people around him clung to their illusions, even once they had hints that something was happening, first because the truth was hard to imagine and then because doing so was a form of self-preservation for their identities or worldviews.

I think that could be shown, including every iconic moment from the series (the body being dissolved in the bathtub, the disastrous cooking in the RV, Gus getting his face blown off, Hector banging on the little bell, Walter's betrayal of Jesse leading to Jane's overdose, "I am the one who knocks," the wild final days of Walter and Jesse's imprisonment) in less than five seasons. It would change the pacing of the series to more a rat-a-tat-tat of moral decline, so it would be inherently different, but it would definitely be possible.

That said, if you genuinely think every moment of a five-season television show was fantastic and needed no cuts, then I'm both amazed and, frankly, jealous, because I can't think of any media that I feel that way about.

I don't think most people feel the need for a show to be "perfect" for every minute on screen in order to consider it "One of the best shows on television". Thats a pretty big bar to set that nothing will ever fit.

The alternate questions is how much difference do you place on somethign that "could be cut" versus "needs to be cut". I won't argue if someone thinks Marie could be cut from BB, because she easily could be. I would argue against the idea that she "needs to be cut".

Lord of the Rings works without both a Merry and a Pippin, and most certainly works without Tom Bombadil, but I don't feel like they "need to be cut" to make a few less chapters and a tighter story.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Didn't they take that out of Disneyland, like, 30 years ago?



For those of us that aren't huge fans of Breaking Bad (or me, at least), I can say that the change or "character development" of Walter White is one of the things that people rave about that I find to be drastically overrated. I can honestly say that I think Walter's journey would be better suited to the pace of a movie trilogy than a long, drawn out TV series. It's simply not that complicated; it's actually quite linear from start to end, and not even that long of a journey. Dragging it out actually made it seem less "real" over time, as it became clear how many of the pseudo-crisis moments were built around the TV episode and season format.

I will agree that a lot of the side characters had more potential. But the show has a clear main character and focus. If it had been an ensemble piece I might have enjoyed it more, although that would have been difficult in other ways. We get short rests from Walt, but it unfortunately always gets forced back to him.

FWIW, I had the same problem with Grimm: I could have a watched an ensemble show about Munroe and other Wesen for many seasons, but I got bored of the main character much earlier (and normally, I'm even a fan of police procedurals). And if you really want to nerd out, we can go into how the best stories in the Star Wars EU are the ones that have no Jedi.

I feel that Jesse is as much a main character as Walt, with is own road to where he ends up. Walt centric story does eat up more of the show (he has both a nuclear family and an extended family in his orbit) but Jesse has enough focus that he also has multiple characters that relate only to him as well (Badger/Skinny Pete and various girlfriends). The majority of the show focuses on both Walter AND Jesse together, and the issues they have in that world (The drug trade characters).

I'm sure a very good movie trilogy COULD be made out of Breaking Bad, but I don't think it would be strictly better than 5 seasons of show.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

The alternate questions is how much difference do you place on somethign that "could be cut" versus "needs to be cut". I won't argue if someone thinks Marie could be cut from BB, because she easily could be. I would argue against the idea that she "needs to be cut".

I think most works could benefit from cuts, especially ones where their length isn't based on how much quality content they have to offer, but on artificial constraints (X number of episodes of Y length cut into Z segments separated by ad breaks).

Remove those constraints -- which, yes, can sometimes be the impetus for great creativity, but sometimes cannot -- and include what's needed to tell the best version of the story, no more, no less.

Most of the time, as Coco Chanel will tell you, you're better off cutting to make the rest shine.

Lord of the Rings works without both a Merry and a Pippin, and most certainly works without Tom Bombadil, but I don't feel like they "need to be cut" to make a few less chapters and a tighter story.

At the risk of more people slapping me on ignore, I think removing Tom Bombadil improves LotR.

The values that he allegedly brings to the story -- representing that it's a wide, magical world full of ancient mysteries -- are shown in other, better ways in the story already and Shelob, for instance, doesn't make everyone stop and say "wait, what the hell is going on here?"

I think the character's inclusion was just JRRT doing something fun for himself, rather than what best served the overall story. He's certainly allowed to do that, but I don't think it benefited the story.

In contrast, I think LotR is a story primarily about the Shire and the hobbits maturing as a nation and stepping forth onto the world stage. Merry and Pippin are a big part of that, especially as they each come to separately earn respect and acclaim in the world of Men in a way that Frodo, who is so terribly damaged by the end, cannot.

I also think that Peter Jackson excluding the Sharkey sequence from the end of Return of the King misses out on the "real" ending for the story. In a movie that has nine hours of "final scenes," it amazes me that none of them are the Sharkey story.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

I think most works could benefit from cuts, especially ones where their length isn't based on how much quality content they have to offer, but on artificial constraints (X number of episodes of Y length cut into Z segments separated by ad breaks).

Remove those constraints -- which, yes, can sometimes be the impetus for great creativity, but sometimes cannot -- and include what's needed to tell the best version of the story, no more, no less.

Most of the time, as Coco Chanel will tell you, you're better off cutting to make the rest shine.

At the risk of more people slapping me on ignore, I think removing Tom Bombadil improves LotR.

The values that he allegedly brings to the story -- representing that it's a wide, magical world full of ancient mysteries -- are shown in other, better ways in the story already and Shelob, for instance, doesn't make everyone stop and say "wait, what the hell is going on here?"

I think the character's inclusion was just JRRT doing something fun for himself, rather than what best served the overall story. He's certainly allowed to do that, but I don't think it benefited the story.

In contrast, I think LotR is a story primarily about the Shire and the hobbits maturing as a nation and stepping forth onto the world stage. Merry and Pippin are a big part of that, especially as they each come to separately earn respect and acclaim in the world of Men in a way that Frodo, who is so terribly damaged by the end, cannot.

I also think that Peter Jackson excluding the Sharkey sequence from the end of Return of the King misses out on the "real" ending for the story. In a movie that has nine hours of "final scenes," it amazes me that none of them are the Sharkey story.

I'll take some of those slings and arrows....I will publicly state that I prefer the movies to the books.

I actually really like Tom's introduction in the books (because the scene in the barrow is one of my favorite in the novels) but feel like the story grinds to a halt (when it should be picking up steam) when they are chilling in his house.

I still don't think he "needs to be cut" because while the story is FASTER without him, I don't think its BETTER. Then again I have never once felt like a movie/show/book was "too long" as long as I didn't actually hate it as a whole.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Good point about the barrow wight sequence, which I agree is a very strong moment from the books. If Tom was gone, that'd have to be Gandalf (or, horrors, Radigast) doing the same.

 

[amethal]

I think three to four seasons would be fair.

I'm glad that wasn't what you said in your OP, because this thread would have been a lot shorter and I'd have missed out on a lot of interesting discussion. (Although, this being the internet, it wouldn't surprise me if someone out there has very strong opinions as to whether Breaking Bad should be four seasons or five.)

 

[amethal]

The alternate questions is how much difference do you place on somethign that "could be cut" versus "needs to be cut". I won't argue if someone thinks Marie could be cut from BB, because she easily could be. I would argue against the idea that she "needs to be cut".

I'd argue very strongly that you shouldn't cut Marie from Breaking Bad.

The "family intervention meeting" scene in season 1 where they get together to discuss Walter's condition, with the "talking cushion" (or whatever it was), gave a great insight into everybody's character, and it doesn't work anywhere like as well without Marie there to stand up for Walter's right to decide for himself.

This causes Skylar to have a meltdown, metaphorically throw the rules of the discussion out the window (despite up to now having scrupulously imposed them on everybody else) and launch into a full-on sibling row. It's one of my favourite scenes.

Also, it further undermines Walter's claim to be "doing this for my family" when he is basically betraying his brother-in-law, who is a cop. I suppose you could have Hank as Skylar's unmarried brother but I can't really see those two as being siblings.

And if you include Marie, you need to give her something to do on a regular basis. Otherwise Betsy Brandt goes off and does something else, and might not be available when you do need her. And I really like Betsy Brandt's performance as Marie - why wouldn't you want her in your TV series? Whether the "shop-lifting" sub-plot was the best choice for this is another matter.

 

[Deset Gled]

It's about the questions of inevitability- did Walter White break bad, or was he always the person he was? More importantly, I think we are all forgetting something very important.

IMNSO, the idea that there are great "questions", or some sort of moral quandary, or huge philosophical meaning surrounding Walter White is one of the most over-hyped parts of the show. I'll give you that the actor is great. There's lots of great dialogue. But his actual story is really quite basic.

This doesn't have to be a bad thing. I'm one of the people that will defend Avatar partly because the main plot is so basic. But no one tried to sell me on 5 seasons of Avatar because of the plot. When Walt's story got hyped as being some sort of intellectual, high brow, literary journey, it turned into a really big let down I got when watching the show.

I feel that Jesse is as much a main character as Walt, with is own road to where he ends up. Walt centric story does eat up more of the show (he has both a nuclear family and an extended family in his orbit) but Jesse has enough focus that he also has multiple characters that relate only to him as well (Badger/Skinny Pete and various girlfriends). The majority of the show focuses on both Walter AND Jesse together, and the issues they have in that world (The drug trade characters).

Jesse is a sidekick. An interesting sidekick. A fun sidekick. But he's still there as a narrative device to provide exposition and fall in a toilet when needed. I love Burt Ward, too, but I have no illusions that I would remember his name it if weren't for the work of Adam West.

FWIW, I watched seasons 1-3 of the show before mostly giving up and just watching key episodes and highlights (including important bits with Gus, Mike, etc).

 

[payn]

IMNSO, the idea that there are great "questions", or some sort of moral quandary, or huge philosophical meaning surrounding Walter White is one of the most over-hyped parts of the show. I'll give you that the actor is great. There's lots of great dialogue. But his actual story is really quite basic.

This doesn't have to be a bad thing. I'm one of the people that will defend Avatar partly because the main plot is so basic. But no one tried to sell me on 5 seasons of Avatar because of the plot. When Walt's story got hyped as being some sort of intellectual, high brow, literary journey, it turned into a really big let down I got when watching the show.

Overhyping happens what can you do? I do think the show was exceptionally written, but its not the greatest thing ever. The fact that you bring up Avatar, well imma just gonna end this line of discussion.

Jesse is a sidekick. An interesting sidekick. A fun sidekick. But he's still there as a narrative device to provide exposition and fall in a toilet when needed. I love Burt Ward, too, but I have no illusions that I would remember his name it if weren't for the work of Adam West.

FWIW, I watched seasons 1-3 of the show before mostly giving up and just watching key episodes and highlights (including important bits with Gus, Mike, etc).

Jesse starts out this way, but the interesting thing is how much potential he has. Walt sees it, but cant ever bring it out of him. It happens though, and it is a very interesting story to watch and unfold. The two are dependent on this journey for what they do for one another. Clearly, YMMV.