House of the Dragon spoiler thread

payn

Legend
We can hold GRRM 100% accountable for his books, and at least partially accountable for the Game of Thrones series. But House of Dragons? I'm not sure how much editorial control he has.

Look, I get it: it is a dark world and you don't like it. But you also seem rather insistent on making it yet another example of misogyny and/or fetishizing violence against women. I just don't agree. Martin might have a fetish for violence/torture etc in general, but I don't see him--at least as expressed through his writing--as being particularly misogynistic, especially when you keep in mind how well his female characters are written - that they are every bit as complex as his male characters are.
Excellent points. I think its worth noting that the Jaime and Cersei Sept scene was not a rape in Martin's writing, but was on the series. The Sansa scene might not even be in Martin's books (if he ever finishes them).
 

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Mercurius

Legend
Excellent points. I think its worth noting that the Jaime and Cersei Sept scene was not a rape in Martin's writing, but was on the series. The Sansa scene might not even be in Martin's books (if he ever finishes them).
That's the real question, no? ;)
 

Stalker0

Legend
That's the real question, no? ;)
Is that even a question at this point? I think the simple is answer is....no, martin will die before he finishes the series, based on simple maths of human life expectanacy and how long each book seems to take. My money is on one more book, I'll give them that, but I think that's it.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Excellent points. I think its worth noting that the Jaime and Cersei Sept scene was not a rape in Martin's writing, but was on the series. The Sansa scene might not even be in Martin's books (if he ever finishes them).
If anything involving Ramsey Bolton and Sansa comes up it will be in a substantially different context since Sansa wasn't being married off to Bolton in the books - that was her old friend Jeyne Poole in the guise of Arya though it is known she is badly abused by Bolton.
 

Whizbang Dustyboots

100% that gnome
I am thinking of the joker just now. "When men are exposed to violence and death its according to plan and everyone is fine. When Women are exposed to violence and death; everybody loses their minds!"
The same Joker who shot Barbara Gordon through the spine and then took off her clothes to send pictures of her paralyzed, bleeding out and naked to her father and Batman?

That's not as good of an example as you think.

There's a whole lot of pop culture that uses violence against women as either motivation for men to be heroic (Women in Refrigerators) or, worse yet, as just background noise.
 

Whizbang Dustyboots

100% that gnome
Yeap, I was thrown for a loop for a second too. Joffery is the name of Laenor's paramour that Ser Cristen punched to death. Including this point right after a GoT reference got away from me for a second.
We're now up to three Joffreys in this franchise now, since the new baby is named after the one who got punched to death. Presumably Joffrey from GoT isn't named after any of the two from HoD.
 

Whizbang Dustyboots

100% that gnome
And the wild part is that the levels of violence aren't all that unrealistic.
The "realism" argument is silly. This is a story with magic, dragons and zombies. There's no requirement for any of this.

And, separately, there's no need to show us graphic violence in loving close-ups, especially when it's not portrayed that way for the straight male characters. The Sansa rape scene could have been we see her looking scared, the door closes, we hear a muffled scream. The showrunners chose to depict violence against women on screen.

Folks here are getting pretty defensive about this. If you're secretly the showrunners, posting on ENWorld is a weird use of your time. And if you're GRRM, I think you know how we'd prefer how you spend your time.

For everyone else, you're allowed to watch and enjoy the show. There's no need to ride to the defense of a bunch of Hollywood millionaires. But everything you're watching on screen is an authorial choice, not something that "has" to happen. And some of their choices are questionable (and I'm not just talking about the writing of the last two seasons of Game of Thrones).
 

payn

Legend
The same Joker who shot Barbara Gordon through the spine and then took off her clothes to send pictures of her paralyzed, bleeding out and naked to her father and Batman?

That's not as good of an example as you think.

There's a whole lot of pop culture that uses violence against women as either motivation for men to be heroic (Women in Refrigerators) or, worse yet, as just background noise.
No, I was thinking The Dark Knight Joker, and it doesn't even matter that it was the joker who said it, but the point in the statement.

You seem to have a general distaste for the material of Martin, and that is fine. What is strange is this projection as if its something terrible about the man himself, and I don't think its fair as the series isn't all his material.
 

Mercurius

Legend
Is that even a question at this point? I think the simple is answer is....no, martin will die before he finishes the series, based on simple maths of human life expectanacy and how long each book seems to take. My money is on one more book, I'll give them that, but I think that's it.
You're probably right. I feel for the guy - I'm guessing he's thoroughly burnt out and writing it gives little joy, especially considering it was completely on screen (regardless of how poor one thinks season 8 was).

Even more baffling is Patrick Rothfuss' inability to write the third book in his series. I know and empathize with the fact that he's had mental health issues, but it isn't like he hasn't been publicly active and, well, it has been 11+ years. But that's another topic....
 

Whizbang Dustyboots

100% that gnome
Is that even a question at this point? I think the simple is answer is....no, martin will die before he finishes the series, based on simple maths of human life expectanacy and how long each book seems to take. My money is on one more book, I'll give them that, but I think that's it.
Yeah, Martin is old, obese, insists on going to conventions and getting COVID despite saying ahead of time that he knows he's in a high risk group.

I think we're going to be in a Christopher Tolkien scenario where his estate will announce they've got a giant pile of notes for someone to make sense of and we will eventually get material based on it, but almost certainly not both Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring. Hopefully they will actually finish the novels instead of just seeing dollar signs and deciding to chop it all up and churn out six or seven more series of novels instead of just giving us a proper ending.
 

payn

Legend
The "realism" argument is silly. This is a story with magic, dragons and zombies. There's no requirement for any of this.

And, separately, there's no need to show us graphic violence in loving close-ups, especially when it's not portrayed that way for the straight male characters. The Sansa rape scene could have been we see her looking scared, the door closes, we hear a muffled scream. The showrunners chose to depict violence against women on screen.

Folks here are getting pretty defensive about this. If you're secretly the showrunners, posting on ENWorld is a weird use of your time. And if you're GRRM, I think you know how we'd prefer how you spend your time.

For everyone else, you're allowed to watch and enjoy the show. There's no need to ride to the defense of a bunch of Hollywood millionaires. But everything you're watching on screen is an authorial choice, not something that "has" to happen. And some of their choices are questionable (and I'm not just talking about the writing of the last two seasons of Game of Thrones).
This is very ironic since you bring the subject up repeatedly, in several threads, for a show you don't even like.
 

Whizbang Dustyboots

100% that gnome
You seem to have a general distaste for the material of Martin
You're really jumping to conclusions here.

I have seen and experienced more horrific stuff in real life than I hope most posters here ever will and I have a remarkably high tolerance for it.

But there is a pattern in both the books and especially the TV shows and it's not subtle.

According to interviews with The Hollywood Reporter and elsewhere, they put a lot of thought into the violence against women, because they think it's important to show it.
Director Sapochnik told The Hollywood Reporter this production instead “pulls back” on the amount of consensual sex in the series; however, sexual assault is still very much present in the script. According to Sapochnik, the approach is done “carefully and thoughtfully” when bringing the stories of sexual violence to the screen, following criticisms of “Game of Thrones” portrayals.

“[We] don’t shy away from it,” Sapochnik explained. “If anything, we’re going to shine a light on that aspect. You can’t ignore the violence that was perpetrated on women by men in that time. It shouldn’t be downplayed and it shouldn’t be glorified.”
That's what I mean about authorial choices. Showing consensual sex is too much (?!), but when bad stuff is happening to women, they're going to "shine a light on it."
 

Whizbang Dustyboots

100% that gnome
This is very ironic since you bring the subject up repeatedly, in several threads, for a show you don't even like.
Please stop deciding what I like and I don't like. I am saying I don't like specific choices. Please stop taking my feelings about a television show so personally.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
The "realism" argument is silly. This is a story with magic, dragons and zombies. There's no requirement for any of this.
Well, that's a question for the author and the choices he makes in his art. But if GRRM wants to write a world with at least some historical antecedents to accompany his fantastic elements, that isn't necessarily a cause to think he needs therapy.
 


Mercurius

Legend
@Whizbang Dustyboots , I don't think you are being called out for not liking grimdark. To be honest, I'm not a huge fan myself; I loved Game of Thrones because it was very well done, with great characters and story, and really captured the feel of Martin's world in a way that is rare in fantasy cinema. Meaning, I liked the show in spite of the grimdarkishness, not because of it. While I didn't revel in the grimdark, it didn't bother me because it made sense within the context of the world.

Similarly, I'm not a fan of whimsy, which we could say is the opposite of grimdark. But I can also enjoy a whimsical story if told well.

I think what you're being called out for (or disagreed with) is drawing a line between the grimdark nature of the shows and some kind of misogyny or mental issue on Martin's part ("he needs therapy"). I don't think that's fair, at least looking at the shows and books as a whole and how Martin writes women in general. If anything, I think he should be lauded for his writing of women - how they are every bit as central to the story as men are, despite the ubiquity of sexism in the world, and the fact that they are every bit as complex, multi-faceted, etc.

Meaning, not only are the elements that you don't like not particularly focused on women (that is, in a way incongruent with the world and themes of the show), but they are simply part of the larger genre conventions of grimdark/gritty Medieval fantasy.

This is not to say that Medievalist fantasy has to be grimdark. Guy Gavriel Kay writes Medievalist/"Rennaissancian" fantasy and is far from grimdark, and is never accused of being unrealistic or not accurate to the genre, afaik. If you're saying that GoT excessively fetishizes violence and suffering (aka, "torture porn") I think you have a valid argument. But to equate all this with misogyny is uncharitable, to say the least.

I mean it is a bit like watching a Nordic Noir show and saying, "The showrunners fetishize murder - how gross; and why is it always gray and cloudy, with no sunshine and rainbows? How tedious." Or watching a whimsical fantasy and saying, "This show is so fluffy - the writers are completely divorced from reality...why isn't it grittier?"

TLDR: You don't like grimdark. I get it. To paraphrase Bobby Brown, that's your prerogative. Maybe that's enough? No one is going to (or should) challenge you on that. But your equation of GoT's grimdark elements with misogyny on Martin's part is tenuous at best, and sounds a bit witch-hunty/false accusatory, so people will respond.
 
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Tonguez

A suffusion of yellow
So just for clarity the whole reveal at the end with Qarl amd his ball headed companion rowing out to sea was all part of Laenor amd Rhynaera’s original plan?
 


BRayne

Adventurer
So just for clarity the whole reveal at the end with Qarl amd his ball headed companion rowing out to sea was all part of Laenor and Rhynaera’s original plan?

I think in retrospect it's a "let's avoid burying our gays too explicitly" even if this is a tragic story where everyone dies
 

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