D&D 5E House rule to force spellcasters with daily spell slots to take short rests

[Peter BOSCO'S]

Have you considered simply reminding everyone (not Warforged) that they still need to eat and if they're going to take most of an hour out of their day to cook and eat a nice hot meal than they might as well take a full hour and call it a short rest.

Something like this - sleep (or trance) (long rest) breakfast, adventure, lunch (short rest), adventure, dinner (short rest), maybe more adventure, sleep again.

 

[Don Durito]

For the sake of bringing this thread back to what I actually wanted to talk about, let's say we also house-rule eldritch blast to work like fire bolt. What then?

I think it's still too low. If you've only got one spell slot per level per short rest then you're going to be extremely reluctant to spend them on anything utility related. (This is one reason why evocations are important to warlocks).

I think I would also - with a short rest reload - not have the slots be so level specific. If the number is lower then so is the complexity - so maybe give some flexibility to go with it - basically use spell points.

Getting the right number is difficult - in theory it's long rest number/3 - but you also need to take into account that casters often don't spread their spells out evenly over the day. You might use 2/3s of your spells in a boss fight at the end of the day. So just dividing the long rest number of slots by 3 is going to feel like a nerf.

 

[Flamestrike]

I think it's still too low. If you've only got one spell slot per level per short rest then you're going to be extremely reluctant to spend them on anything utility related. (This is one reason why evocations are important to warlocks).

But Warlocks have 2 slots per long rest for levels 2-10.

And from 5th level, Hex lasts effectively all day long.

Meaning from 5th level, your average 6ish encounter/ 2 short rest adventuring day, you have enough 'juice' to get off 5 x 3rd level spells, plus concentrate on Hex and spam Eldritch blast, which puts you on par with any other 5th level long rest caster.

 

[tetrasodium]

For the sake of bringing this thread back to what I actually wanted to talk about, let's say we also house-rule eldritch blast to work like fire bolt. What then?

likely solves a lot of problems but you still have the problem @Don Durito mentioned and stuff like monks being able to make flurry the default action & possibly flurry+stunning strike+possible archetype goodies for 3 attacks with extra benefits most if not every round on top of all the other cool monk features once the party starts resting after every fight while fighters don't get a third attack till 11... Normally the fact that the party is unlikely to rest after every fight limits that considerably but not so with your fix.

It doesn't end there for fighter problems though,second wind & action surge back on a short rest, everything seems ok until you notice battlemasrer & psi warrior get back superiority/psionic energy dice on a short rest & rune knights get back their rune while many other fighter archetpes get bupkis.

It doesn't end there either. Your spell slot rejiggering might work fine for a land/shepherd/etc druid, but for a moon druid it means:

• always have two wildshape forms but fewer spellslots to heal with so any tough fight will knock them out rather than taxing their slots.
• at 11+ they transform into a earth/fire/water/air elemental for 5+ hours & after the first fight or two have a second fresh one waiting to go plus some spell slots to heal it.

The more you look, the more other class & archetype specific edge cases that will either be broken or make someone's life miserable until you introduce yet another one off fix you can hope won't prove problematic just to support this change. This sisyphean task should be a positively trivial change, but WotC set you up to fail on this matter by pegging short rest classes to higher bar than long rest on the assumption they would often run low & fall back & that's the kind of stuff people were alluding to upthread.

 

[tetrasodium]

But Warlocks have 2 slots per long rest for levels 2-10.

And from 5th level, Hex lasts effectively all day long.

Meaning from 5th level, your average 6ish encounter/ 2 short rest adventuring day, you have enough 'juice' to get off 5 x 3rd level spells, plus concentrate on Hex and spam Eldritch blast, which puts you on par with any other 5th level long rest caster.

That's a good point. Hex changes the math on thoe EB casts to easily round it up to the next full level before the repelling gives it another solid bump

 

[p_johnston]

So the funny thing is I have tried the same thing in reverse (turning the short rest classes into long rest classes). I figured it would be easier because I only really had to worry about 3 classes instead of 9. The results of that experiment were me learning that It doesn't really work that great (Increases the tendency of my Party to Nova the crap out of enemies. Also I had two monks so any boss got stun locked to death.) While I doubt turning long rest abilties into short rest ones will have the same issues I do suspect it will unbalance the game and make it less fun.

I think a simpler solution to the problem is to mess with the rest mechanics rather then trying to change a bunch of classes. I've been trying 13th age and am one hundred percent stealing the idea of "you get a long rest after about 6-8 encounters not whenever you sleep." In addition give each person only 2 long rests per short rests and it's done.

 

[Flamestrike]

That's a good point. Hex changes the math on thoe EB casts to easily round it up to the next full level before the repelling gives it another solid bump

Presuming 5th level and a standard dungeon level/ ruin (do-able in a few hours) of 6ish encounters and 2 short rests (ASI used on +2 Stat at 4th) using a 'caster blaster' warlock (Fiend Tome-lock, AB, EB, book of Ancient Secrets) and a blaster wizard (Evoker):

Warlock:
At will: 2d10+2d6+8 damage cantrip plus pushback; can be split among 2 targets.
At will: rituals (Book of Ancient Secrets)
6 x 3rd level slots (1 used on Hex)
(Total 18 spell levels) - one used on Hex for 15 effective spell levels.
D8 HD, AC 15 (studded leather and Dex)
Big Boom: Fireball

Wizard:
At will: 2d10 damage
At will: rituals
4 x 1sts
3 x 2nds
2 x 3rds (+1 with arcane recovery)
(Total 19 spell levels) - one used on Mage armor for 18 effective spell levels.
D6 HD, AC 16 (Mage armour and Dex)
Big Boom: Fireball (can exclude 4 allies)

Really, the Wizard is getting more 'minor' spells off such as shield, scorching ray, mirror image, knock etc (and thus more utility and variety) and also will have more spells prepared than the Warlock (so be more of a swiss army knife) while the Warlock has the much stronger 'at will' cantrip damage, more 'big booms' via more 3rd level slots to spam Fireball, but his fireballs need to be placed more accurately.

They're looking pretty balanced at this level and at the 2 Short rests per Long rest frequency.

 

[FireLance]

I think it's still too low. If you've only got one spell slot per level per short rest then you're going to be extremely reluctant to spend them on anything utility related. (This is one reason why evocations are important to warlocks).

I think I would also - with a short rest reload - not have the slots be so level specific. If the number is lower then so is the complexity - so maybe give some flexibility to go with it - basically use spell points.

Getting the right number is difficult - in theory it's long rest number/3 - but you also need to take into account that casters often don't spread their spells out evenly over the day. You might use 2/3s of your spells in a boss fight at the end of the day. So just dividing the long rest number of slots by 3 is going to feel like a nerf.

I'd rather not go with spell points because that's supposed to be the sorcerer's unique feature.

One possible additional flexibility that I've thought of, which is also a nod to old-school "Vancian" spellcasting, is that spellcasters with daily slots can choose to "memorize" a number of spells equal to Proficiency Bonus -1 in addition to the one slot per spell level "generic" slots. This ties up the slot to the spell - if you've "memorized" fireball with a 3rd-level slot, you can only cast it using that 3rd-level slot and if you want to upcast it, you have to use one of your generic slots and a paladin with a "memorized" spell can't convert it into a smite. When you finish a short rest, you can "memorize" new spells (up to your limit) if you have cast "memorized" spells, change the spells you have "memorized", or choose to convert "memorized" spells back into generic spell slots.

 

[tetrasodium]

So the funny thing is I have tried the same thing in reverse (turning the short rest classes into long rest classes). I figured it would be easier because I only really had to worry about 3 classes instead of 9. The results of that experiment were me learning that It doesn't really work that great (Increases the tendency of my Party to Nova the crap out of enemies. Also I had two monks so any boss got stun locked to death.) While I doubt turning long rest abilties into short rest ones will have the same issues I do suspect it will unbalance the game and make it less fun.

I think a simpler solution to the problem is to mess with the rest mechanics rather then trying to change a bunch of classes. I've been trying 13th age and am one hundred percent stealing the idea of "you get a long rest after about 6-8 encounters not whenever you sleep." In addition give each person only 2 long rests per short rests and it's done.

I had similar experiences trying that. The most notable thing about this thread is that someone is trying to bash their head against the opposite side of how people normally seem to try going about changing it.

@FireLance that might seem like a reasonable inference, but there is an entirely different imbalanced subsystem to make (many) more one off house rules become needed or throw off the math supporting your reasonable assumption on the value of those lesser slots. First is the overuse of concentration to guarantee the wizard will almost never be able to multitask & really leverage it. Second is the fact that eldritch blast & fireball are not the only massively underleveled spells. Those "intentionally overtuned" spells* are generally so much better than every other spell of that level that it dramatically distorts the landscape.

* No wotc won't make it easy on you by admitting which spells but burning hands, scorching ray, & fireball are three of them clocking in at a 2.5 level spell in a 1st level slot, a 3rd level spell in a second level slot & a fifth level spell in a third level slot respectively.

 

[FireLance]

likely solves a lot of problems but you still have the problem @Don Durito mentioned and stuff like monks being able to make flurry the default action & possibly flurry+stunning strike+possible archetype goodies for 3 attacks with extra benefits most if not every round on top of all the other cool monk features once the party starts resting after every fight while fighters don't get a third attack till 11... Normally the fact that the party is unlikely to rest after every fight limits that considerably but not so with your fix.

It doesn't end there for fighter problems though,second wind & action surge back on a short rest, everything seems ok until you notice battlemasrer & psi warrior get back superiority/psionic energy dice on a short rest & rune knights get back their rune while many other fighter archetpes get bupkis.

It doesn't end there either. Your spell slot rejiggering might work fine for a land/shepherd/etc druid, but for a moon druid it means:

• always have two wildshape forms but fewer spellslots to heal with so any tough fight will knock them out rather than taxing their slots.
• at 11+ they transform into a earth/fire/water/air elemental for 5+ hours & after the first fight or two have a second fresh one waiting to go plus some spell slots to heal it.

The more you look, the more other class & archetype specific edge cases that will either be broken or make someone's life miserable until you introduce yet another one off fix you can hope won't prove problematic just to support this change. This sisyphean task should be a positively trivial change, but WotC set you up to fail on this matter by pegging short rest classes to higher bar than long rest on the assumption they would often run low & fall back & that's the kind of stuff people were alluding to upthread.

I really don't see these as problems. As mentioned, monks are supposed to have 3-4 times their level ki points over the course of an adventuring day. On the assumption that there are two fights between short rests, that means monks are supposed to use an average of level/2 ki points per fight. Assuming 3 rounds per fight, a 10th-level monk can flurry each round and attempt two stunning strikes between rests - if they do nothing else with their ki.

As for fighters, I don't think they need to be encouraged to take short rests because they all get Second Wind and Action Surge, even if some subtypes get more benefits from a short rest.

For a moon druid, getting "knocked out" in a wild shaped form means they lose the form and take the spillover damage. They can still continue to cast spells and cantrips or attack with weapons. I actually think it would make the fight more interesting if the wild shaped druid PC has to change tactics halfway through.