[House Rule] Weapon & Implement Speed

[Kzach]

Since there isn't a house rules forum for 5e, I figured this is the only place I can post this; and yes, I'm aware of why there isn't a house rules forum, but that doesn't invalidate posting a house rule. At least not IMO

I've always liked the idea of weapon speed. I've always felt that this was a factor that was overlooked to the detriment of the system. I'm hoping that it makes an appearance as a modular rules addition in 5e. It's in this spirit that I post this as an idea to toss around as a future prospect.

We know that there aren't going to be minor actions in 5e but that there will be an action segment and a move segment and that you can only attack in the action segment. This actually lends itself to a speed system quite well if you assume that changing a weapon or implement is a movement. This would mean that your initiative would change for your next turn but not within your turn.

So a fighter with a longsword which has a speed of 5, say, rolls and adds his modifiers for an 18 initiative, minus 5 for his sword for a final result of 13. He attacks and then decides to change to a dagger because it's faster and he's hoping to get in an attack before his enemy does next turn. So he drops his longsword and draws his dagger (speed 1), changing his initiative to 17 for his NEXT turn. His opponent was acting on a 16, so when the next round of initiative starts, the fighter gets in an attack before his enemy does, killing him.

This could be extended to implements as well by simply giving implements a few weapon-like modifying conditions like using no implement is quick but adds no other benefit whilst wands could be fast but grant a 19-20 crit range, and staves are slow but grant brutal 1 to all damage dice of a spell being cast.

 

[nnms]

So what happens when a long sword wielder wants to fight according to some historical techniques and makes a half blade grip attack? Does the weapon speed change to that of a short spear? Or what happens if the wielder makes a murder strike and uses their cross piece as a warhammer while gripping the blade instead of the handle?

Part of me wants to go back to OD&D where all weapons had the same characteristics and did the same damage (1d6).

 

[Kzach]

So what happens when a long sword wielder wants to fight according to some historical techniques and makes a half blade grip attack? Does the weapon speed change to that of a short spear? Or what happens if the wielder makes a murder strike and uses their cross piece as a warhammer while gripping the blade instead of the handle?

I don't see how any of this applies to any of what I'm proposing.

Part of me wants to go back to OD&D where all weapons had the same characteristics and did the same damage (1d6).

Oh, now I get it. I don't suppose you could piddle elsewhere?

 

[Herremann the Wise]

I like the idea behind weapon speeds but I believe that they are muddling two different concepts into one:
* When can my character act
* How well can my character react

The classic argument against weapon speed values is that the longspear/bastard sword wielder should get first crack at the dagger wielder (due to reach) but as the weapon is a "slower" weapon, this is not going to happen. As well, cyclic initiative does not gel as well with weapon speed numbers compared to the old static initiative round structure that once housed weapon speeds. Essentially, you have two things competing here (how quickly can a combatant act, and how quickly can they react) but under the single definition of weapon speed.

I would prefer that the "speedy" dagger wielder is represented by how well they can react to things, such as opportunity attacks or quick attacks that may be triggered by an opponent missing or some such (allowing the dagger wielder to get in close). What would be great is if characters had a number of swift actions up their sleeve (between 1 and at high levels 4) as well as a Major action and a Minor action. The dagger user can use each of their swift actions to make these reactionary attacks while the guy with the greataxe is NOT going to be using a swift action to react (needing to use their single minor action to perform an opportunity attack). He might have got the first swing in but he's not going to be reacting with a huge chunk of metal like how the zippy dagger wielder can.

I would leave initiative to determine who gets to act first and use swift actions in a round to model how well a character can react (with high speed weapons getting to use swift actions for attacks, while slower weapons do not). Certainly something for an advanced module rather than the core but heh. That's my take anyway.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Hautamaki]

I think that lighter weapons that are smaller and deal less damage but are faster and easier to use don't get a fair shake in 3rd or 4th edition. By far the best fighter weapon is the great sword because it does the most damage period so every other choice is automatically suboptimal. (note I said weapon, not over-all build)

For my houserules I standardised damage for 1 handed martial weapons as d8 and 2-handed as d10, and light weapons as d6.

Most light weapons get a +1 or +2 bonus to hit due to their speed and ease of use.

Swords get a +1 or +2 bonus to defense due to the ease of using them to parry (compared to most other weapons).

Axes get a x3 crit instead of x2 due to their higher damage potential with a good clean hit landed.

Hammers/Maces get armor piercing due to them being specifically designed for use against heavily armored foes (armor piercing in my game is meaningful due to all armors having some damage reduction, but in a game without damage reduction you could also just have them negate some or all of the bonus armor gives to AC)

Long weapons like halberds, spears, etc, have reach and allow their wielder to always get the first hit when melee combat is initiated; ie when you or an opponent moves into an adjacent square; regardless of the initiative order. After that initiative order resumes as normal.

 

[Stormonu]

1st round of Melee contact: All weapon speed factors ADD to the initiative roll (thus larger weapons tend to strike first).
2nd and following Melee rounds: All weapon speed factors subtract from the initiative roll (thus, those weapons with a "faster recovery" strike quicker).

Ranged weapons always subtract from the initiative roll.

Initiative is rolled each round, on a d10. If you want to use d20, I suggest doubling the Weapon Speeds listed below.

That does mean that if you withdraw from combat, and your foe follows you, he gets a bonus to his initiative - if he's holding a long sword and you've got the dagger, it's more likely he'll get in the first swing as he comes after you.

Also, weapon speed can primarily be based on size:

Natural/Natural Augments (Claw, Bite, Gauntlet): Speed 1
Tiny (Dagger, Katar, Sap): Speed 2-3
Small (Light Mace, Short Sword, Half-spear ): Speed 4-5
Medium (Heavy Mace, Long Sword, Heavy Flail): Speed 5-6
Large (Two-handed Sword, Heavy Club, Battleaxe): 7-8
Huge (Pole arms): 9-10

So if you switch your grip (say, somehow pulling one of the maneuvers nmms mentions), you can decrease your Weapon's Speed factor by a size factor - at the cost of say, reducing the damage dice for a successful strike.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

1st round of Melee contact: All weapon speed factors ADD to the initiative roll (thus larger weapons tend to strike first).
2nd and following Melee rounds: All weapon speed factors subtract from the initiative roll (thus, those weapons with a "faster recovery" strike quicker).

There is a neatness to this but again there's a problem. What happens in round 3 when my bastard wielding sword is free on the periphery and Mr. Daggerman runs over to attack him? This same situation is going to happen every time that a combatant is "joined" in combat by an opponent after that first round. I suppose you could have a reach factor and if it's greater than the opponent you get an Opportunity Attack when they join in combat but then that's another interaction that's not self policing and is perhaps more hassle than it is worth.

Ranged weapons always subtract from the initiative roll.

Except for the sniper who's had a bead on his target since last round; but then when does Mr. Sniper get to go?

Also, weapon speed can primarily be based on size:

Natural/Natural Augments (Claw, Bite, Gauntlet): Speed 1
Tiny (Dagger, Katar, Sap): Speed 2-3
Small (Light Mace, Short Sword, Half-spear ): Speed 4-5
Medium (Heavy Mace, Long Sword, Heavy Flail): Speed 5-6
Large (Two-handed Sword, Heavy Club, Battleaxe): 7-8
Huge (Pole arms): 9-10

This would seem a fair categorizing although what do you do with a staff that while large can be used with blinding speed but only when wielded by someone skilful enough? This tells me that the skill of an attacker needs to come into the equation as much if not more so than the weapon they wield.

So if you switch your grip (say, somehow pulling one of the maneuvers nmms mentions), you can decrease your Weapon's Speed factor by a size factor - at the cost of say, reducing the damage dice for a successful strike.

This creates really wonky situations though when you are doing something other than attacking with your weapon. My greataxe carrying half-orc is plodding along while the dwarf flies past him joyously holding up a dagger, giving my guy a wink with the bear quickly catching up to both of us. This is why I believe initiative should just reflect the combatant, rather than their weaponry. Weaponry should determine how easily and well my character offensively reacts, not how quickly they act in the first place.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[nnms]

1st round of Melee contact: All weapon speed factors ADD to the initiative roll (thus larger weapons tend to strike first).
2nd and following Melee rounds: All weapon speed factors subtract from the initiative roll (thus, those weapons with a "faster recovery" strike quicker).

Again, what about the vast amount of times depicted in medieval fighting manuals where you change the way you wield your weapon according to the situation? What about when you take your two handed sword, grab it half way up and draw the tip of the blade forward in a rapid motion? Or when when you lever your longsword during a press and quickly thrust down with only 8 inches of the blade?

Kzach may have the impression that I'm threadcrapping, but I am trying to help. Weapon speeds may not be the best house rule to capture how quickly or slowly a weapon can be attacked with.

 

[Stormonu]

Again, what about the vast amount of times depicted in medieval fighting manuals where you change the way you wield your weapon according to the situation? What about when you take your two handed sword, grab it half way up and draw the tip of the blade forward in a rapid motion? Or when when you lever your longsword during a press and quickly thrust down with only 8 inches of the blade?

Kzach may have the impression that I'm threadcrapping, but I am trying to help. Weapon speeds may not be the best house rule to capture how quickly or slowly a weapon can be attacked with.

3E would have handled this with feats that both provide the maneuver's you're talking about that might also affect Speed Factor; my attempt was a simplification in that if you grabbed your Weapon Speed 7 Greatsword half-way down, it's speed factor would change to that of a Medium (or perhaps Small) weapon with a Weapon Speed of say, 5. Using 8" on a longsword sounds like dropping it to Small (Maybe even Tiny) weapon, so the Weapon Speed 5 Long Sword might be treated as a Weapon Speed 3 or 4 weapon.

In both cases, you'd be looking at least a 1-die reduction in damage; the GreatSword doing d10 or d8 instead of d12, the Long sword doing d6 or d4 instead of d8.

You could then just module in feats to represent training that when you perform one of the moves above, you get the faster speed but not the reduction in damage. Or give certain classes (say fighter) the ability to do the same thing by a given level automatically.

 

[underfoot007ct]

So what happens when a long sword wielder wants to fight according to some historical techniques and makes a half blade grip attack? Does the weapon speed change to that of a short spear? Or what happens if the wielder makes a murder strike and uses their cross piece as a warhammer while gripping the blade instead of the handle?

Part of me wants to go back to OD&D where all weapons had the same characteristics and did the same damage (1d6).

Having all weapons do a D6 is not really a bad concept, or maybe instead you do your HD in dam rather than the OD&D D6. It would lessen the choosing a weapon due to it doing 1/2 a point of dam of some other reason. No more exotic weapon feats, or uber weapon combos. Pure RP, use the weapon that fits you char the best. Maybe get +1 to attack if you use your favored racial weapon.