[House Rule] Weapon & Implement Speed

[Stormonu]

There is a neatness to this but again there's a problem. What happens in round 3 when my bastard wielding sword is free on the periphery and Mr. Daggerman runs over to attack him? This same situation is going to happen every time that a combatant is "joined" in combat by an opponent after that first round. I suppose you could have a reach factor and if it's greater than the opponent you get an Opportunity Attack when they join in combat but then that's another interaction that's not self policing and is perhaps more hassle than it is worth.

Well, my guess is if your "bastard" is already engaged, then his weapon recovery rate already in effect. We can assume Mr. Daggerman is moving in (smartly) when the sword-wielder is most out-of-position. Mechanically, the sword-fighter is subtracting his Weapon Speed for already being in combat, the dagger-wielder is getting a bonus for his first round entry.

<Edit> Doh - I see I missed what you were saying. If the swordsman didn't start the round engaged - and he's expecting to go attack someone, that'd be like resetting his Weapon Speed to 1st round and he'd get to add his Longword Weapon speed to his init. Depending on whether the Daggerman is moving away from an engagement or his free of enemies, his weapon speed would affected appropriately as well (minus if moving from one combat to another, plus if unengaged).

Except for the sniper who's had a bead on his target since last round; but then when does Mr. Sniper get to go?

Good point; if melee hasn't been engaged yet, I like the old 1E/2E rules that missile fire goes first...A DM could make a ruling that a ready and nocked ranged weapon has a Weapon Speed of 1 (or 0).

However, if combat's already been going on, we're talking about moving targets. In this case, we could assume that the sniper with the longbow might be having a harder time than his shortbow-wielding companion keeping the moving target in his sights (more bow to move and the pull is heavier, which could be factors). Also, consider that we're generally talking about combatants who generally want to take more than one shot, so Weapon Speed is more of a "how long between strikes" than any one single blow. The length of a longbow arrow could create a slight delay both in drawing from the quiver, nocking and pulling back the string than on a shortbow.

Of more problem would be the slow-loading weapons like slings, crossbows and their ilk. How do you factor in their slow loading time into round-to-round Weapon Speeds?

This would seem a fair categorizing although what do you do with a staff that while large can be used with blinding speed but only when wielded by someone skilful enough? This tells me that the skill of an attacker needs to come into the equation as much if not more so than the weapon they wield.

We're still looking at possibly Dexterity affecting Initiative, as well as feats such as Improved Initiative being possible. Other feats and class abilities could factor in that affect Weapon Speeds - such as the ones I mentioned in the post above to nmms.

This creates really wonky situations though when you are doing something other than attacking with your weapon. My greataxe carrying half-orc is plodding along while the dwarf flies past him joyously holding up a dagger, giving my guy a wink with the bear quickly catching up to both of us. This is why I believe initiative should just reflect the combatant, rather than their weaponry. Weaponry should determine how easily and well my character offensively reacts, not how quickly they act in the first place.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

Remember; In the first round, that great-axe wielding half-orc is more likely to get up into the fight than Mr. daggerdwarf. However, once they're engaged, Mr. daggerdwarf is probably going to take his swipe first.

This may, in some regards, aid the rogue. Let the fighter dash in with his big weapon first, then follow him up with a quick strike and disengage before the opponent can leverage a strike against him.

Weapon Speed isn't a perfect solution, but I think it adds a little spice that gives some meaning to weapon selection rather than always going for the weapon that deals the biggest die of damage. In the end, that's what I want - an in-game reason why fighting with a knife can be just as viable a solution as running around with a longsword - or a two-handed sword.

<edit> Doh again. If these guys aren't engaged in fighting for the round for some reason, I'd assume you'd either use their "natural" Weapon Speed or they'd have a 0. If they're pulling back out of, or intend to be engaging in some sort of fighting, they'd use their weapons.

For example, say the Half-Orc and the Dwarf state for the round they're going to grab a magic candle in the room they just found while their friends are duking it out with a Bear. They're not intending to engage in combat, so the two of them roll init, just adding, say 1, since they're going to "grab" the candle. For amusement's sake (considering he has a 20' speed anyways...), the dwarf reaches the candle first, and mocks the Half-Orc. If the DM were kind, he *might* let the Half-Orc use his bare hands to try and grab the candle away from the Dwarf. Cue opposed Strength check. Let's say, just when the Half-Orc wrestles the candle from the Dwarf, the Bear manages to push past these two companions and it rushes the Half-Orc. It's not like the Half-Orc can attack the bear - he's already taken his action. The Bear is moving from one combat to the other, so his initiative doesn't change - he just barrels into the Half-Orc as the Dwarf laughs at the greenskin's predicament. "I'll, er... hold that," the dwarf scoffs, bending down to pick up the fallen candle. "Looks like ye got yer hands full there."

 

[El Mahdi]

...I've always liked the idea of weapon speed. I've always felt that this was a factor that was overlooked to the detriment of the system. I'm hoping that it makes an appearance as a modular rules addition in 5e...

So what happens when a long sword wielder wants to fight according to some historical techniques and makes a half blade grip attack? Does the weapon speed change to that of a short spear? Or what happens if the wielder makes a murder strike and uses their cross piece as a warhammer while gripping the blade instead of the handle?

I'm thinking Kzach might want to check out Codex Martialis.

Codex Martialis CORE RULES V 23 - Ire Games | RPGNow.com

codexmartialis.com • Index page

Part of me wants to go back to OD&D where all weapons had the same characteristics and did the same damage (1d6).

Me Too!

 

[pemerton]

what do you do with a staff that while large can be used with blinding speed but only when wielded by someone skilful enough? This tells me that the skill of an attacker needs to come into the equation as much if not more so than the weapon they wield.

<snip>

I believe initiative should just reflect the combatant, rather than their weaponry.

There is a strong argument that, in a game in which combat is as abstract as D&D, intiative should be done away with altogether! How well someone can handle their weapon, including taking advantage of its reach, its speed, etc, is all bundled up in their attack roll.

Conversely, if you want to get detailed then it is highly plausible that skill should matter. Both Rolemaster and HARP have mechanics that permit points of combat skill to be allocated to initiative - and they are "rocket tag" combat systems with wound mechanics, so getting in the first blow is always helpful, as it creates an opportunity of defeating or at least significantly debuffing your foe.

My understanding is that, in the real world, for a knife fighter to have a good chance of beating a sword fighter, the knife fighter would have to be much more highly skilled. Conversely, between two fighters of ordinary skill, my understanding is that it is always going to be better to turn up with a sword than with a knife. Any speed rules should reflect this, I think.