Houserules for tools

[TaranTheWanderer]

I'm going to be running a game soon and will be tweaking a few of the rules. I was reading 'Most Frustrating Quirk about 5e thread' and taking some notes on things I'd like to change.

Tools came up quite a bit and, I agree, I think they suck. Have YOU tooled around with tools in your game? If so, tell me what you've done!

As For my own idea, I was thinking of doing this:

1. Tools are now a thing you can buy. If you have them, you can do that Thing you are trained in. If you don't have them, you get Disadvantage on that Thing or, depending on what that Thing is, you might not be able to do it at all. High Quality Tools could give you advantage.

Overall, Tools will be covered by a Profession related to the tools listed in the book.

Thieves Tools might be called Proffession: Burglar or Burglary. It will be based off whatever STAT is appropriate, just like tools normally work in the PHB.

Healers Kit will now be called MEDICINE. And now medicine will have a use. I might rename it to Proffession: Healer

Etc....

2. I might go further and give tools 10 uses where a nat. 1 uses up materials (picks break, chemicals spill, you need to resupply equipment). Not a lot of book keeping, about as much as you might have for tracking ammunition, if you're the kind of DM that makes players do that. (and I might be...but I haven't decided)

3. I was also thinking of using the rule from 3.5 that, if you aren't trained in certain skills, you can't use that skill for any DC higher than 10. I was thinking of applying this to 'Proffessions'. So, regardless of how >>INSERT STAT<< you are, or how good your tools are, if you don't have the training, you don't have the techniques to do anything better than mediocre work.

Once again, thoughts? Ideas?

 

[aco175]

Unless your game tracks things like food, water, and ammo, I would not make players track tools. Talk to the players before you make changes.

I can see something along the lines of you being able to profession if you have the tools. Maybe you can upkeep as a decent living or something. I can also see masterwork tools that give you some sort of bonus. Maybe not advantage, but live at a higher upkeep or 1/day you get advantage to a check.

 

[Blue]

I think personally I'd go even simpler.

Forget any tracking of uses, it's used up / broke / gone on a natural 1 for the skill roll.

Sometimes a skill needs a tool. Do it without the tool, disadvantage.

Sometimes a skill is helped by the tool. Do it with the tool, advantage.

Alternately +/-2. It preserves getting advantage/disadvantage elsewhere, but it changes the max DC that can be gotten, which I'm not as fond of.

 

[MechaPilot]

That title . . . made me think this was a completely different kind of thread.

 

[5ekyu]

I'm going to be running a game soon and will be tweaking a few of the rules. I was reading 'Most Frustrating Quirk about 5e thread' and taking some notes on things I'd like to change.

Tools came up quite a bit and, I agree, I think they suck. Have YOU tooled around with tools in your game? If so, tell me what you've done!

As For my own idea, I was thinking of doing this:

1. Tools are now a thing you can buy. If you have them, you can do that Thing you are trained in. If you don't have them, you get Disadvantage on that Thing or, depending on what that Thing is, you might not be able to do it at all. High Quality Tools could give you advantage.

Overall, Tools will be covered by a Profession related to the tools listed in the book.

Thieves Tools might be called Proffession: Burglar or Burglary. It will be based off whatever STAT is appropriate, just like tools normally work in the PHB.

Healers Kit will now be called MEDICINE. And now medicine will have a use. I might rename it to Proffession: Healer

Etc....

2. I might go further and give tools 10 uses where a nat. 1 uses up materials (picks break, chemicals spill, you need to resupply equipment). Not a lot of book keeping, about as much as you might have for tracking ammunition, if you're the kind of DM that makes players do that. (and I might be...but I haven't decided)

3. I was also thinking of using the rule from 3.5 that, if you aren't trained in certain skills, you can't use that skill for any DC higher than 10. I was thinking of applying this to 'Proffessions'. So, regardless of how >>INSERT STAT<< you are, or how good your tools are, if you don't have the training, you don't have the techniques to do anything better than mediocre work.

Once again, thoughts? Ideas?

What is your goal here? Make tools more useful, less?

I use the tools rules from PHB and from XGtE.

I also tend to be liberal with how they apply their boosts.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I'm not sure what the benefit of this is?

Have you read the Xanathar's Guide stuff on tools?

It seems to accomplish the same goals, but more elegantly.

 

[5ekyu]

I'm going to be running a game soon and will be tweaking a few of the rules. I was reading 'Most Frustrating Quirk about 5e thread' and taking some notes on things I'd like to change.

Tools came up quite a bit and, I agree, I think they suck. Have YOU tooled around with tools in your game? If so, tell me what you've done!

As For my own idea, I was thinking of doing this:

1. Tools are now a thing you can buy. If you have them, you can do that Thing you are trained in. If you don't have them, you get Disadvantage on that Thing or, depending on what that Thing is, you might not be able to do it at all. High Quality Tools could give you advantage.

Overall, Tools will be covered by a Profession related to the tools listed in the book.

Thieves Tools might be called Proffession: Burglar or Burglary. It will be based off whatever STAT is appropriate, just like tools normally work in the PHB.

Healers Kit will now be called MEDICINE. And now medicine will have a use. I might rename it to Proffession: Healer

Etc....

2. I might go further and give tools 10 uses where a nat. 1 uses up materials (picks break, chemicals spill, you need to resupply equipment). Not a lot of book keeping, about as much as you might have for tracking ammunition, if you're the kind of DM that makes players do that. (and I might be...but I haven't decided)

3. I was also thinking of using the rule from 3.5 that, if you aren't trained in certain skills, you can't use that skill for any DC higher than 10. I was thinking of applying this to 'Proffessions'. So, regardless of how >>INSERT STAT<< you are, or how good your tools are, if you don't have the training, you don't have the techniques to do anything better than mediocre work.

Once again, thoughts? Ideas?

So, for specific responses to the ideas presented...

First, again, its not clear what your goal is other than more tracking related to tools.

#1 - Ok so first off you can already buy tools from the equipment list in PHB. You can also train during downtime to acquire more tool proficiencies iirc (DMG or was it XGtE) So "a thing you can buy" exists in the rule right now RAW. As for advantage and disadvantage, thats already pretty standard RAW now - does some part of the approach or circumstance make success more or less likely - sure the presence of a lack of needed tools or exceptional tools covers that. Numerous examples with the Ap etc of needing tools to make a check at all - thieve's tools often listed.

2 - Ten uses flat out - thats some crappy tools. I would suggest by RAW you consider "setbacks" on failed tries. PHB ability checks defines as a baseline core rule that a failure can be no progress *or* also some progress with a setback. So, its perfectly RAW right now to say "Ok so it started off bad but you managed to get the lock picked but in doing so your key picks got broken and stuck so from now on until you get replacement your tools use is at disadvantage to checks." etc etc etc. make failure meaningful instead of just adding tracking is IMo a better direction.

3 - Not sure for the purpose you are after there but - and allowing things for easy checks that are not normal for harder checks - no problem. (Suggest you look at DMG under roll of the dice where iirc proficiency and DC 10 can be ruled an auto-success for just one example where they do this.) Most tools proficiencies come thru backgrounds (and often the equipment toolkit as well it seems.) I basically have seen tools (as referenced in XGtE later on) as "a sign of professional training" and the rules seem to support that view right now as is.

But, i often look at my proposed changes in terms of where i am trying to go from where things are now -

North (more powerful) vs South (Less powerful)
East (more detailed and crunchy) vs West (less detailed, crunchy, more streamlined or narrative)

So if i wanted to make abc more potent and also remove the crunch and detail to a bit - make it narrative - I put that in my mind as MorthWest and choose options that go those directions.

With yours, i do not see it clearly what direction you are wanting to take "Tools" in your game by these changes. it seems like almost circular.

But as an example, i added to favored terrain for rangers a "lay of the land" feature where after a day in an area they get to know it well enough to qualify. That makes it more powerful (more often in play) but also simpler and more narrative in play (for both the player and the Gm.) North-West. Did not add to it any elements that weaken it or make it more crunchy to muddle the trek - so to speak.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

To answer a couple of questions:

1. The purpose is to fix the wonkiness between tools and existing skills like, Performance/instruments and medicine/healers kit. So, [MENTION=6919838]5ekyu[/MENTION] in that sense, I'd be trying to make it more West? Streamlined?

2. To shift the proficiency to a skill focus instead of a tool focus. Where the tool is just the a piece of equipment used with a skill, and not the skill itself. Yes, I assume that 'tools are a sign of professional training' but I don't like how it's implemented. The tool itself should just assist the proffession.

So, for Instruments, you wouldn't have a proficiency in an instrument. You'd have Proffession: Musician/Oration/Artist/Actor etc... and you'd choose an instrument. I'd drop Performance all together.

I'd drop Proficiency Healers kit and use Medicine (Proffession Healer), so there's no overlap.

***

I've skimmed XGtE and would probably incorporate some of the uses but, once again, I'd remove tools-as-a-skill.

[MENTION=6919838]5ekyu[/MENTION] Regarding uses, I was just thinking they'd lose a 'charge' on a 1- not every roll. But I like the idea of setbacks better. As you say, less tracking of resources. I'm not specifically trying to make Players track resources...I'm just brainstorming ideas. I just like the idea of needing to occasionally resupply. (rations, ammo etc...). Generally, I don't make players keep track unless they will be away from civilization for a long time and needing to track that stuff becomes part of the challenge to survive. Instead I just tell them to spend a few gold and say they've resupplied.

[MENTION=20564]Blue[/MENTION]

Alternately +/-2. It preserves getting advantage/disadvantage elsewhere, but it changes the max DC that can be gotten, which I'm not as fond of.

You aren't fond of a straight +2? Maybe, instead, better tools just let you do things more efficiently. Kind of in line with what [MENTION=27385]aco175[/MENTION] is saying. Drop the amount of time it takes to craft or pick a lock or whatever. Outside of adventuring, it lets you do more things with your down time - make more money - craft more stuff. While adventuring, things like picking locks a bit quicker could have a focus if you need to get that door open before the guard comes back - but it's pretty situational.

I just mentioned #3 because I like the idea of training(proficiency) giving you more than a mathematical bonus. It opens options that were not possible before. It's one of the few things I miss from 3.5. But 3.5 focused that rule on knowledge checks (DC 10 being common knowledge and anything higher than that would only be known by people who had skill in the knowledge area) I'm not sure if it's worth finding a way to implement something like that, but I wanted to mention it.

 

[Rya.Reisender]

Xanathar's Guide is excellent for improving tools. I usually don't allow optional / variant rules, but I found these so awesome that I allowed them.

 

[aco175]

I may favor the normal tools giving the straight DC for the thing you want to do. Masterwork tools may give you +2 and homemade tools -2, or disadvantage which feels better. I would also make a super-duperwork tools that give advantage to the roll. I can see the thief trying to pick a lock with a hairpin like in the movies, but at a penalty like disadvantage. I can also see a set of picks once used by the god of lock picking that give advantage.

Have not thought about all the other skills and tools to do the same but I can see instruments and tools like mason tools and paintbrushes.