Hovering Dragons with Reach

[Bill Bisco]

Hmm....yeah that's my thought too. Still I hate having to dumb down a monster to make him fun, and I'm worried about living campaigns with more sadistic DMs.

If you're worried about dumbing down a monster then don't include one in the campaign. Seriously.

Dragons always assume they are superior, even to other dragons. So the odds of them learning a lesson from another is dubious. Those that do are probably the dangerous things flying around.

No.

True, but if the idea is to find a rationalization that will let you make the fight fun for all of the players, including the melee characters, you go with what you can.

Knowing that you've won the fight because the enemy is intentionally being an idiot is even less fun.

 

[James McMurray]

Play the dragon smart like they are or don't play a dragon. Knowing that you've won the fight because the enemy is intentionally being an idiot is even less fun.

Cool. If you like fights that are boring for some of the players, go for it.

 

[FadedC]

Play the dragon smart like they are or don't play a dragon. Knowing that you've won the fight because the enemy is intentionally being an idiot is even less fun.

I don't completely disagree here either. A reasonable alternative might be to just house rule away hover from dragons, or to rule that he can't make melee attacks while hovering. It doesn't seem entirely in flavor for a dragon to be meleeing you while flitting around like a humminbird anyway.

 

[Bill Bisco]

I don't completely disagree here either. A reasonable alternative might be to just house rule away hover from dragons, or to rule that he can't make melee attacks while hovering. It doesn't seem entirely in flavor for a dragon to be meleeing you while flitting around like a humminbird anyway.

Well if he's not doing that then he'd just be doing flyby attacks with reach. He still has no incentive to get in the players' range if he doesn't have to. Meanwhile, the party could have brought some reach weapons, so they don't have to be useless.

 

[Yaezakura]

Each dragon type has rather distinct abilities, and how they utilize their ability to fly is generally dictated by how their flight can be used to make the best use of their different strengths and weaknesses.

Blacks seem to prefer the ground, hiding in shadows and lurking in murky water to launch their attacks from hiding.

Blues like to stay airborn and out of reach, blasting with their breath weapon and Lightning Burst powers.

Greens like to Flyby Attack and Breathe to wear enemies down, then land and launch into melee when the foes are softened up.

Reds prefer fighting on the ground, only flying to or away from battle, or into a more advantageous position.

Whites are savage and like to fight up close and personal, on the ground. Likely the only time they would fly is to reach battle (by dive-bombing from above) or to reach a vulnerable-looking enemy it couldn't reach by walking.

Remember, fighting isn't always about doing what may be smartest from a tactical point of view--creatures like fighting in the ways that are most comfortable for them. For Blacks, Reds, and Whites, their abilities and strategies function best from the ground, flight being used only as needed to enhance their assaults. Greens and Blues prefer the air, because that's where they best use their abilities.

Plus, there are numerous ways to deal with flying opponents. Ranged characters have an edge, of course, but even melee fighters should carry some kind of ranged weapon so as not to be useless in such situations. Powers that immobilize, stun, or knock opponents prone bring down fliers, which is the perfect time for the melee characters to converge on the grounded enemy and unload as brutal an assault as possible.

There are plenty of ways around the fact dragons can fly. ^_^ Not all of them like flying and fighting. Those that do, when you DO bring them to the ground, are very vulnerable while there.

 

[Runestar]

Or you have it that initially, the dragon deems itself as more than a match for a bunch of "puny" adventurers, and so literally leaps into the fray of battle, expecting an easy fight. It is only when it starts getting overwhelmed does it realize that it has really bitten off more than it can chew this time, and decides to start fighting more cautiously by playing hit-and-run. So while the 2nd half of the fight may be a little more conservative, it won't be as boring since the party wouldn't have as much hp to wade through.

And this way, you are still able to get to use all of the dragon's abilities.

Remember, fighting isn't always about doing what may be smartest from a tactical point of view--creatures like fighting in the ways that are most comfortable for them. For Blacks, Reds, and Whites, their abilities and strategies function best from the ground, flight being used only as needed to enhance their assaults. Greens and Blues prefer the air, because that's where they best use their abilities.

I both agree and disagree with this statement.

It seems that the 4e monster design philosophy is to only give monsters powers which they are likely to use in combat. For example, you no longer see demons with a glut of SLAs like desecrate or animate dead, or dragons with weak spellcasting that rarely ever see use outside of pre-combat buffs which are all too easily dispelled. This suggests that all of the monster's special abilities are expected to see play in one way or another to make for a memorable encounter. It is also possible that its difficulty level even assumes that you will (ab)use said ability for all it is worth!

This means that since dragons have hover, the designers fully expected them (the DM) to make full use of it in combat.

 

[FadedC]

Well if he's not doing that then he'd just be doing flyby attacks with reach. He still has no incentive to get in the players' range if he doesn't have to. Meanwhile, the party could have brought some reach weapons, so they don't have to be useless.

Actually if the dragon is now allowed to hover, he has quite a bit of incentive to fly down and melee. They can only breath once every 3 rounds, while the party can shoot at them every round. That's likely to be a bad trade, except maybe for blue dragons who have an at will ranged.

A dragon without hover is also far easier to ground. It allows immobilize to force them to land, while daze forces them to give up their turn if they do not want to land.

The main problem with hover+reach is just that it lets them have the advantages of melee damage without the risk of being in melee. And hovering foes are far harder to force to land....only knocking them prone or stunning them works I believe.

 

[On Puget Sound]

What's bad about making a fight different, and challenging the party's ingenuity?

OK, so the dragon is hovering 10 feet above you and striking down with reach every round, except when its breath recharges.

Can anyone manage a 5' vertical jump? If not alone, what if another character provides a boost (Aid Another)? That floating disk that carries the party loot is a 2' stepstool; now you only need a 3' jump to swing at the dragon pinata. Can the party move to terrain where hovering won't work, or where they can climb something to attack? As mentioned above, even melee characters should carry a bow or thrown weapon; even though the hits are unlikely, if 5 characters are hitting with something, a 20 will turn up every 4 rounds on average. Readied actions are also an option. Eladrins and Feylocks can teleport straight up, possibly even landing on the dragon's back. Any sort of attack that can pull or slide the dragon can move it "down" as easily as any other direction.

A fight that forces characters to use something other than their standard tactics is not automatically a boring fight.

 

[FadedC]

What's bad about making a fight different, and challenging the party's ingenuity?

OK, so the dragon is hovering 10 feet above you and striking down with reach every round, except when its breath recharges.

Can anyone manage a 5' vertical jump? If not alone, what if another character provides a boost (Aid Another)? That floating disk that carries the party loot is a 2' stepstool; now you only need a 3' jump to swing at the dragon pinata. Can the party move to terrain where hovering won't work, or where they can climb something to attack? As mentioned above, even melee characters should carry a bow or thrown weapon; even though the hits are unlikely, if 5 characters are hitting with something, a 20 will turn up every 4 rounds on average. Readied actions are also an option. Eladrins and Feylocks can teleport straight up, possibly even landing on the dragon's back. Any sort of attack that can pull or slide the dragon can move it "down" as easily as any other direction.

A fight that forces characters to use something other than their standard tactics is not automatically a boring fight.

I didn't think about the jump tactic, though presumably you'd draw an AoO from the dragon every time you tried (you would be moving adjacent to him and then leaving). I'm not 100% that I'd want to give the dragon an extra attack for every attack I made, though it may be worth it for the dailies.

 

[On Puget Sound]

wizard:move floating disk below dragon (move); blast dragon (standard)

ranged characters: shoot dragon

melee characters: delay till after rogue

rogue: jump up using disk to help; hit dragon with Positioning Strike; slide dragon to ground level. (Alternate: this could be any character with a stunning or otehr incapacitating attack). Since the slide happens before the rogue falls from his jump, no AoO (maybe... I might rule against this bit of cheese, and say that gravity makes the rogue "move" before he normally would, so an AoO does happen).

Melee characters: bash dragon with daily powers. If you have someone with a very high STR, maybe they Grab the dragon instead.