How a ****ing cantrip exterminates an entire school of magic. NO MORE OF THAT!

[Particle_Man]

An entire optional class that I've only seen played once since it came out (and that was by me because I wanted to try out the class) and have seen many DMs on the boards who flat out don't allow it. If the problem is that Warlock can cast a 24 hour detect magic then I find the problem is with the warlock and not detect magic.

Well if you think 2nd level Warlocks are broken (and how often have I heard that one), you must really be upset with Pathfinder. Every single major spellcaster (so not including Paladins or Rangers, but including Bards, Clerics, Druids, Sorcerers, and Wizards, as well as the Advanced Players Guide classes Inquisitors, Oracles, Summoners, and Witches (but not Alchemists)) in Pathfinder can cast DM as often as they want, assuming it is on their spell-list.

So the solution is, lessee, not ever play Pathfinder, ban the Warlocks, and make Illusionists work much harder than any other spellcaster in order to actually make their illusions work.

Heck, I might just say that illusion auras detect as another random aura unless the caster level of DM is higher than the caster level of the illusion.

Turning it around, don't a lot of Monsters have detect magic as an at will ability? Should they be banned too?

 

[Greenfield]

Two Wizards in the party would mean something like 8 Detect Magic available per day. No extra Cantrips for high stats after all. Clerics get up to 6 zero-levels a day, as do Sorcerers, so 12 is about tops with two casters.

Presume median level (10th or 11th), that's about two hours of DM per day. If you allocate them per room, you'll go through a Detect Magic per room while Searching for secret doors and hidden traps. It's not that the spell won't outlast a Search check, but between one thing and another you'll probably spend 10 minutes per room, presuming no encounters.

If you allocate them per encounter (which presumes that you know when and where there will be encounters), and you throw them before and after, that's 6 encounters a day, presuming you don't waste any on anything but encounters. Like, searching for magical traps and treasures in halls or non-encounter rooms. Oh, and don't forget using it to look for illusory walls, floors, doors all the way through.

Oh, and since the caster must concentrate to maintain the spell, it means that they won't be casting any other prep spells for the encounters, nor will they be doing much in terms of Spot or Listen checks as they go. The rules say that while maintaining concentration you can't use any other skills that call for it. Like listening intently, looking around for trouble, etc. -5 for "distracted" is the best they could manage I'd imagine. They're going to get caught by surprise a lot whenever the "surprise" is non-magical, or comes from anyplace other than that 60 foot cone in front of them.

So your "enough for all day" either presumes that you only explore for two hours a day, only have 6 encounters, or check maybe a dozen rooms and or halls in a day's exploring.

Out doors, where there aren't neatly framed and contained rooms, your group's DM ability will peter out before your morning coffee break.

Of course, you could burn higher level spell slots for the zero-level spells. That can extend your capacity quite a ways, perhaps all the way until lunch. It will cripple your ability to do anything other than see trouble coming, but that's the trade off you get to make.

What you seem to be describing is a world where your character has advanced warning of when there will be an encounter, when Detect Magic will be called for. If your PC lacks that special insight then it doesn't seem to be nearly as casually available as is being described.

Oh, and contrary to the "Just go and buy the ability" suggestion, it's not a permanent ability you can just go out and buy. It can be made permanent, but a caster can't make it permanent on someone else, only on the caster. See Permanency.

 

[Dandu]

I think this topic has been done to death. What we need now is a new topic complaining about how Rogues get to find traps ALL DAY LONG.

 

[Jimlock]

Which, really, is the way to go with traps. Any trap in an occupied area, realistically, needs a simple way to get past it for the people who occupy the area. Whether that's a trap that won't hurt them (fire subtype critters with fire-based traps, undead and negative energy traps, cold subtype critters and cold traps, attuned Symbol spells, properly aligned Forbiddance zones, et cetera), a simple way to bypass it (a key, password, et cetera), or knowing what to ignore (which door to not try and open, where the illusion is located, and so on). Without one of those (or perhaps something similar), the occupants will fall for them, and get killed.

Its one to be able to find a way around a trap, and another thing to parade before traps. With Detect Magic this parade is highly possible.

1) Defense is harder than offense in general; this holds true in D&D as well. A (Greater) Dispel Magic + Quickened Suggestion (possibly via Rod) is hard to defend against, for instance, and can very easily take down the Fighter who was depending on that Third Eye Conceal so that he wouldn't need to make Will saves vs. Murdering the party.

I don't get this "defense is harder than offense in general". It's actually the other way around. Offense is and should be harder.
Brazil Vs Germany (soccer) in Brazil... means that Brazil has the advantage, and not the other way around. The defender is the one with the "bonus."
Its harder to score a goal than to make sure you don't get a goal.
And IMO it holds true in all aspects of the game as well... with some exceptions... such as this one (detect magic).

2) In a dungeon, sure. But then, consider: Have you ever stopped and calculated the costs of all those traps, all those doors, the walls, the tunnels, and all that treasure in a dungeon? Seriously; try it sometime.

This logic is beyond me. Just because dungeons are "naturally" expensive and, because of that you get to fill one with all sorts of expensive defensive mechanisms without some scenario to support the budget and reasons behind a dungeon's existence does not make a cantrip balanced in respect to that.

A modern tank costs several hundred thousand to build. A tank-busting missile costs several thousand to build. You do the math.

Not so I'm afraid.

Lets zoom out and see the big picture here.

Country A invades Country B. If both countries are of the same power, Country A loses. It's as simple as that. In order to win in the offense you need this extra something.
This stands true for everything in life.
-War
-Sports
-Games
-Diplomacy
....

Adventurers in a dungeons bring expensive magical items, their wits, and put their lives in danger so as to achieve their goal. And this concept gets really cheesy if you can parade in a dungeon with detect magic.

3) That was specific to a dungeon. In a city, I don't need to worry about it - just my own illusion auras, which go away with one casting of Misdirection (or possibly Nondetection), which lasts pretty much all day. If you're depending on Detect Magic to locate the assassin coming in disguise to hurt the king? Well, I just Misdirect myself, and I no longer register as magic. I walk blithly on by your checkpoint, murder the king, and leave. Or maybe I giggle as I use the spell on someone important, so that they register as having an illusion aura... and you then interrogate them (or kill them, if you're not thinking sneaky) and now have the issue that you've ticked off someone important.

Not so easy as you describe it. Far from it actually.

The assassin will only get rid if his "personal" aura. He will not get rid of the auras of all the magical items he certainly carries with him.
You'll probably need a bunch of Magical Aura Spells or scrolls, one for every magical item you carry so as to have some CHANCES of not being detected by the cantrip...

...which brings us back to the point where I say that its too demanding to try and counter the cantrip...

I never said you could. Seriously. Look back through my posts. You don't make the aura on the real illusions go away.

again, it only applies to person or item. Majority of Illusions can't benefit from this.

That's because you're not used to playing chess in this manner. The basic method above for Phantom Trap? There's related methods (using Magic Aura, Misdirection, or both) that work for Illusory Script, Illusory Wall, Disguise Self (and related), Invisibility (and related), and even the Image line. OK, yes, it's really tricky to make a Minor Image not register as illusory.

Illusions are used in conjunction with real stuff, not in isolation.

Exactly. Illusions are used in conjunction with real stuff, and they shouldn't rely on a bunch of other spells so as to be effective.

Having to cast a minimum of three spells (one of which might be up to 6th level) so as to counter a cantrip is utterly pathetic.

And again. Even with all those spells you just get better chances... it's not a bulletproof defense system... and we know that the game has plenty of bulletproof defenses that are a lot cheaper than having to cast a combination of spells so as to counter a cantrip.

You're forgetting: Continuous concentration.

So? You are out of battle. You walk and detect... whats the big deal?

(or sinking more resources... like that 500 xp... or one of a number of feats).

500xp.... really is N-O-T-H-I-N-G compared to the benefits. You know it, I know it, everybody knows it.

Remember what I said about traps buried under illusions?

Remember what I said about casting plenty of spells, spending money, time and misc resources in order to defend yourself against a cantrip?

Have you ever run across a secret door? They exist in D&D.

I'm starting to get tired of the sarcasm.

.........

All DM's metagame. It's part of the job.

??

Murders happen everyday. Its part of why life is a b***h. So?


I'd prefer a DM who has balanced illusions somehow, than a DM who will metagame on me on purpose because I use Detect Magic a lot.

Makes sense right?

If I throw a pebble at everything, I know whether or not it's an illusion immediately. I don't need Detect Magic at all. Are pebbles broken?

lol... What kind of argument is that?

I have repeatedly mentioned that you get to throw the pebble ONLY AFTER YOU HAVE DETECTED AN ILLUSION WITH DETECT MAGIC. You don't throw pebbles at everything you come across.

+ you can poke it, touch it or throw some powder on it.... if you want to remain silent.

 

[kitcik]

So your "enough for all day" either presumes that you only explore for two hours a day, only have 6 encounters, or check maybe a dozen rooms and or halls in a day's exploring.

What you seem to be describing is a world where your character has advanced warning of when there will be an encounter, when Detect Magic will be called for. If your PC lacks that special insight then it doesn't seem to be nearly as casually available as is being described.

How many encounters do you have per day?

Six is more than we have EVER had with any DM in like 15 years.

Yes, we used to have that many back in the dungeon-crawl days as I described in my prior post, but people don't seem to do that any more.

I would say 1-4 encounters per day is normal, and with 2 casters we have enough DMs to waste some and still buff and be ready...

Is this good? Not necessarily. Honestly, I liked the old days better. But that's what I see from DMs today - and I work too many hours to take over the screen. Ahh well. Detect Magic it is, then.

Oh, and [MENTION=85158]Dandu[/MENTION] , forget Rogues. It's those damn elves and their continuous Detect Secret Doors that is B-R-O-K-E-N.

 

[Empirate]

I don't get this "defense is harder than offense in general". It's actually the other way around. Offense is and should be harder.
Brazil Vs Germany (soccer) in Brazil... means that Brazil has the advantage, and not the other way around. The defender is the one with the "bonus."
Its harder to score a goal than to make sure you don't get a goal.
And IMO it holds true in all aspects of the game as well... with some exceptions... such as this one (detect magic).

Quite apart from the topic at hand (which has indeed been discussed to death), I'll just have to say that neither D&D nor soccer work that way. In D&D, it's a well-established fact that defensive options have a hard time outweighing offensive options - especially when it comes to winning an encounter. Sure, you can expend your standard actions on ways to not get hit easily, but those won't win you the fight. Moreover, it's much better to take your opponents out before they do the same to you, due to the way D&D works: attack bonuses outstrip AC bonuses, lots of offensive effects have no save, no SR (or still have partial effects if a save is made), etc.

Similarly, in soccer you don't win games if you don't score goals. Germany, for example, has a weak defense, but a great offense. Hence their handy win over Brazil in August. The result was 3:2, but that doesn't reflect the fact how superior Germany played. Their weak defense still made two goals possible for B. - but never would B. have won the game the way they played.

 

[Jimlock]

My "assessment" was a direct read from the rules.

If you've decided that the rules, as written, are wrong, then there's no sense in a discussion of the rules. I'll presume that that isn't where you wanted to go with that.

Yes, but you deciphered it the wrong way. No harm done. You have to read it in respect to all related spells and illusions. I believe I cleared that up in my post where I put all the spells together and highlighted what they do. No offense intended.

Looking at the pebble trick: How do people in the real world react to someone who's always throwing pebbles at everything? Who in their right mind does that?

The one who takes a walk into a dungeon with Detect Magic On. He throws pebbles whenever he detects illusion. Simple and fast.

As long as the pebble stays in the area, it works. For the lower level illusions that can only do one object, creature or force, it has to stay in contact with the wall to be incorporated into the illusion, which may look odd, but hey, it's a low level spell.

Hmm... I don't think this is the case:

Silent Image
Illusion (Figment)
Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Effect: Visual figment that cannot extend beyond four 10-ft. cubes + one 10-ft. cube/level (S)
Duration: Concentration
Saving Throw: Will disbelief (if interacted with)
Spell Resistance: No
This spell creates the visual illusion of an object, creature, or force, as visualized by you. The illusion does not create sound, smell, texture, or temperature. You can move the image within the limits of the size of the effect.

A vase is an object. A broken vase (in parts) is still a vase as visualized by me. Any object, creature, or force, as visualized by me, has the possibility of coming in as many parts as I want. It's entirely up to the imagination of the caster. The only limit of the spell is its capable volume. Other than that you can "Imagine/Visualize" anything you want in it and call it a force, a creature it or an object... as visualized by you.

PHB p173, under figment:

For example, it is possible to use a Silent Image spell to create an illusory cottage, but the cottage offers no protection from rain.

Now a "cottage" is a small simple house, a dwelling, comprised of many objects. A cottage is not a "single object" It has doors windows, a roof... smoke coming out of the chimney...
So... since you can specifically make a cottage with a Silent Image spells, this means that the: visual illusion of an object, creature, or force is not to be deciphered so strictly, cause otherwise a cottage would not have been possible. The real limit of the spell is its volume. Inside that volume you can visualize whatever you want.

Moreover, the rest of the Image-line spells are based on Silent Image, and their text never mentions any changes in respect to what you can do. They only keep on adding senses and alter durations, but the logic behind the visualization remains the same.

That brings up the one element that's always been missing from the rules: How does a caster makes the illusion "react appropriately"? How do you, as a DM, adjudicate that?

Someone hits the monster, it needs to bleed on cue, not too early, not too late. Timing is critical or the illusion loses credibility.

This, I think, is a crucial piece of the puzzle. The caster certainly has to be in a position to see the pebble hit the wall, the sword hit the monster. That means that they probably have to be present, and thus vulnerable to attack.

I used to use Reflex saves for that kind of timing issue. Some I know have used Spellcraft. But there's nothing actually written down, and I've watched over the years as people came up with more and more excuses to nerf Illusions.

Now, if the pebble-throwing and poking of everything is only in response to an Illusion already detected, we're talking about two completely different things. You're trying to fight a battle that's already lost.

Very good points. Personally I don't use Reflex saves or Spellcraft checks for that. Considering that the caster is concentrated on the illusion I give him full control of the illusion as long as he is not flat-footed in respect to what is about to happen.

RC, on page 121 says that: A figment’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier......

So don't give them that time. Arrange for consequences for poking every random thing.

Another metagame logic I'm totally against.

I'd rather fix illusions than rush players into something. Makes sense?

It's funny how you throw everything there is in order to make Detect Magic look less broken... I hope you understand this...


First you propose infinite combinations of spells, you name "Wizards' chess game", infinite resources... and then you propose metagame solutions....
just so that you don't have to admit that Detect Magic is broken in respect to the Illusion school.

I'm going to repeat an earlier suggestion: Invent a new feat : Mask Illusion

Not that I don't like your proposal... Its just that this is close to how I think Illusions should work in the first place... without the need of an extra feat... and no matter if you are a specialist or not.

That only gets you creatures and objects, though... which, granted, gets you a very large number of illusion spells. There are 47 Illusion spells in main section of the SRD; of those, only 16 produce an effect that meets the dual criteria of "knowing it's an illusion matters" and "can't be guarded via one or the other of those two spells". Of those 16, one doesn't have a local effect (False Vision) and so it doesn't really matter as far as Detect Magic and it's ilk go. Two don't have visual elements (Ghost Sound, Ventriloquism). Two also affect a guard able creature (Mislead, Mirror Image) and creative use of Magic Aura and Misdirection can be used so that knowing there's an illusion about doesn't really help. So between Magic Aura, Misdirection, and some minor trickery, the only ones left as dead giveaways (out of 47 spells of the Illusion school in the SRD, mind), we have:

Hallucinatory Terrain
Illusory Wall
Mirage Arcana
Minor Image
Major Image
Silent Image
Permanent Image
Persistent Image
Programmed Image
Screen
Silent Image

aren't you forgetting

Disguise Self?
Veil?
All the "Invisibility" ones?
Mirror Image?

What's your point?

How many spells does Detect Magic have to screw so that we can finally call it broken in respect to illusions?

So your "enough for all day" either presumes that you only explore for two hours a day, only have 6 encounters, or check maybe a dozen rooms and or halls in a day's exploring.

Don't forget about scrolls. Detect Magic scrolls are extra cheap.

I think this topic has been done to death. What we need now is a new topic complaining about how Rogues get to find traps ALL DAY LONG.

Funny you mentioned that... lets see:

A thief takes 2minutes (20 rounds) in order to properly search a single 5 ft square.

...and he has plenty of chances of failure..

A caster with Detect Magic can search an entire area in just a few rounds, has 0% miss change to see all auras (which for a lot of cases is more than enough)... and finally gets to roll so as to identify schools of magic... and lets face it... DC 15 + spell level is pretty easy for mid level casters.

 

[Crothian]

Well if you think 2nd level Warlocks are broken (and how often have I heard that one), you must really be upset with Pathfinder.

And you'd be wrong.

I like Pathfinder much better then 3e. The mistake you made was assuming I'm on the side of the argument that feels Detect Magic defeats Illusions and that it is a problem. I'm not. It's not a problem I've ever seen in a game. And since it took 11 years for me to see a thread on it for 3e I doubt it really is a problem for many people who play the game.

 

[Crothian]

Although back in the day (78 - early 80s), there was such a thing as a "typical dungeon environment," I find this is not the case in games today.

Based on the modules published for the game I think there is. And the definition of that is extremely broad just having to be mysterious in some way.

 

[Jimlock]

Quite apart from the topic at hand (which has indeed been discussed to death), I'll just have to say that neither D&D nor soccer work that way. In D&D, it's a well-established fact that defensive options have a hard time outweighing offensive options - especially when it comes to winning an encounter. Sure, you can expend your standard actions on ways to not get hit easily, but those won't win you the fight. Moreover, it's much better to take your opponents out before they do the same to you, due to the way D&D works: attack bonuses outstrip AC bonuses, lots of offensive effects have no save, no SR (or still have partial effects if a save is made), etc.

Similarly, in soccer you don't win games if you don't score goals. Germany, for example, has a weak defense, but a great offense. Hence their handy win over Brazil in August. The result was 3:2, but that doesn't reflect the fact how superior Germany played. Their weak defense still made two goals possible for B. - but never would B. have won the game the way they played.

I understand that we see this from different perspectives.

You can't judge things by taking into account the possible outcomes of an encounter... only.

The effort, resources, risk of death and power required to initiate an offensive action has to be taken into account as well.

Weighting offense and defense is not a simple "villain's spell Vs PC's spell".

It's not the dungeon's cost Vs the PCs.

Its the cost of the dungeon in respect to what it keeps secret inside it, in respect to the resources/money a king spends so as to send a party to investigate, in respect to the party's worth, in respect to the possible death of whomever enters that very dungeon.... and so on.

So once you've gathered all the facts for any given situation, you'll find that the offensive action requires more effort, power and resources.