How bad does the bard suck?

[BRP2]

I think it depends on the campaign really. I'm not just talking about roleplaying/information focused, but party size makes a big impact on Bard.

I think what they are missing are feats that make more use/choices/variety out of their inspire music. This can be said for almost every job, but Fighter, Wizard, and Sorcerer(who don't, but should, have some kind of niche to begin with).

 

[Darklone]

Bardic spell casting is also woefully underpowered. The Bard acquires spells too slowly, learns too few of them, and simply can not cast enough per day.

I'd love to have the bard seen as the counterpart to the sorcerer:
The sorcerer knows a few spells and can cast a lot.
IMHO the bard should know many utility and very few blasting spells, while not being able to cast many per day.

Yet, at higher levels the sorcerer knows many more spells than a bard.

My wishlist for 4th edition for the bard:
Jack of all trades: Many skills, many spells known, spontaneous casting and finally some other uses for bardic music. I'd even remove it totally and replace it by spells (where's the difference anyhow). Then a list of special abilities like the rogue to pick from.

 

[Plane Sailing]

The bard class sorta doesn't know how much of a spellcaster it wants to be. I think it could be improved by making it a 9-level spell caster along the lines of wizards or clerics, or a 4-level spellcaster along the lines of paladins and rangers. In each case having class abilities improved or reduced to match with the improvement or reduction in spells.

(as it is, the bard often has a spell at a lower spell level than wizards but still gets it later because of their different spell progression)

BTW, there is the unexplained strangeness of cure spells on the bards (arcane) list. It is a strange little proud nail, and either cure should be on all arcane lists or on none (maybe bards should be considered divine casters?) - or the bards have a separate 'healing song' ability or something.

In my experience, bards as-is are very effective party buffers... but players have found them unsatisfying to play.

Cheers

 

[Jedi_Solo]

Our group has been playing 3.X since it came out. Many different campaigns over the years. Our current campaign is the first one to get up to 20th level. We started at 1st and my Bard PC is one of two characters that has survived to see 20th level. I also have a rep as being a 'Kill Stealer'. I must be doing something right in combat if I am doing damage and surviving to tell about it.

I have been told by other players that I inspired them them to play Bards in other campaigns.

Bards don't suck. However, they may be the most difficult to play of the core classes for a variety of reasons. Some "in book" and some "out of book".

Bardic magic doesn't match anything else. It isn't a full progression like Cleric or Wizard and it isn't even a 'delayed full' like the Sorcerer has. It also isn't a half progession like Paladin or Cleric. A few non-core classes have messed up progressions as well and one may match the Bard but none are coming to mind.

Bardic Music is one of the main aspects of the class and it also follows its own set of rules. Nothing that I can think of really matches it. The +X/+X mechanic of it is easy enough to follow but it has a tendancy to act like a six round buff no matter the level. When I cast Haste it lasts my caster level in rounds. When I Inspire Courage it only lasts five additional rounds - just like when I was first level - and after a full round 'casting' to boot. Sure, I can keep singing to make it last longer but I usually want to cast another spell or something that casues the countdown to start very quickly - another odd aspect of the ability.

[Small tangent] Neverwinter Nights 2 seems to take aspects of the Marshal and place them onto the Bard. The Bardic Music in the game is a fairly close match to the Marshal's Aura ability with the Bard being able to change out the music like the Auras. I like this concept and would like to see something like that for 4e. It would also match the Paladin's aura setup to cut down on how many the Bardic Rules follow their own rules. [/tangent]

As has been mentioned the Bard isn't Best in anything. Most of the other classes are ment to be Best and the Bard isn't one of them. This requires a certain kind of player. One that is content to sit back as other celbrate victories and high dmage outputs and be able to say to myself 'I rock because I helped with that'.

If a player sits down and does the math the Bard can easily be the one doing the most amount of damage in combat assuming the group is large enough. With the Bard just adding +2 to damage - a four character group is doing 8 damage from the Bardic Music alone if there are just four hits in the round (assuming each PC hit once - or maybe the fighter hit twice while the wizard missed or did something else - you get the idea). That isn't including the Bard's own die roll for damage or the fact that since everyone also had +2 to hit the Bard may be causing hits where the d20 roll wasn't actually high enough for the hit. The bard can easily be a spectacular damage dealer - he's just not the one rolling the dice meaning that the Bard easily gets overlooked when high fives are thrown about. The player needs to be fine with not getting 100% or the recognition they deserve.

The Bard is an oddity - and arguably the oddist of the base classes (with the Monk being the other main contender fo the title). It has its own rules that no one else uses and its biggest combat contributions are actually done by other people so the player themself can't be a glory hound (or else the character will be retired fairly quickly). Nothing wrong with the Glory Hound Player (I want the spotlight some of the time myself). The Bard just isn't a good match for them.

 

[Shade]

To quote Bart Simpson: "I didn't think it was possible for something to suck and blow at the same time." The bard does.

 

[Mycanid]

I voted for the second option. I think that most don't play a bard very well, but I would grant that for many it is probably a hard class to ... err ... get the most out of. But I do like Plane Sailing's suggestion about a bigger spell selection. Perhaps that would be a big help for many.

 

[The_Gneech]

The bard's suckage or awesomeness is proportional to the size of the party: the bigger the party, the more awesome the bard. Just because you didn't personally inflict those extra +5 points of damage this round, doesn't mean you don't deserve the credit for them.

-The Gneech

 

[Retreater]

I don't like the bard. I can't find a way to make the class fun to play, despite several attempts. Now I'd rather not play than have to play a bard.

Here's what I don't like.

1. Can cast in light armor. Wow. Whoopidity doo. That's a worthless ability. A sorcerer's Mage Armor provides the same amount of AC as a chain shirt (the best kind of light armor you can buy). It lasts an hour per level, has no check penalty or weight, and provides its bonus against incorporeal creatures. So that means that every arcane caster who has Mage Armor can already cast in light armor.

2. Bardic knowledge. The game mechanics behind this are vague. It's completely DM's fiat and provides no quantifiable benefit to the bard character or his party.

3. Charisma. It's a dump stat, yet it's the focus of the bard's powers. Charisma is a dump stat because it doesn' give you extra hit points, armor class, skill points, improve saves, or increase your chances to hit and damage. [On the other hand, a rogue can pump a lot of points into his Dexterity score, which improves his AC, Reflex Saves, many rogue skills, attack bonus (if using a ranged weapon or weapon finesse), and also improves his initiative, making it more likely to catch an opponent flat-footed to deal sneak attack damage.)

4. Low hit points. What's this talk about having good hit points earlier in the thread? You are aware that it's a d6 hit die, right? That's the second worse in the game. Only the sorcerer and wizard have worse hp.

5. Can use some martial weapons. But why do you want to be up there in the thick of it with low hit points, crummy AC, mediocre attack bonus, etc. Yeah, elven wizards can use longswords too, but it doesn't mean they should.

6. Bardic music. Oh, this stinks. You give buffs not unlike the bless spell. But while the music is active, a bard can't use a scroll, cast another spell, use a wand or other magic item with a command word. And most DMs probably won't let you even talk while you do it. So a cleric can cast bless (or prayer) at the beginning of a combat, and the bard can get the same effect as long as they do nothing else for the rest of the combat and can maintain concentration. Meanwhile, the cleric is attacking, turning undead, healing comrades, etc.

The bard just seems like an altogether poorly conceived class. The weapon and armor proficiencies, mediocre attack bonus, and the 1d6 hit points seem like a waste if the bard's major abilities is magic and bardic music - in which case he should be avoiding melee combat.

The bard's abilities are all so lukewarm that he's woefully inadequete in magic, skills, and combat.

Retreater

 

[Shadeydm]

In my opinion the class needs work. As written the Bard is what I consider a luxury class. By this I mean that it's a nice class to have if you have 5 or more PCs but not really a good choice to fill any of the iconic roles in a 4 player party.

 

[satori01]

The bard's suckage or awesomeness is proportional to the size of the party: the bigger the party, the more awesome the bard.

I just do not find that to be a great design. When the conventional wisdom is the bard is the best fifth wheel err fifth character, or that a Bard needs a big party to truly shine; then we are talking about a character that is designed to excel in very limited circumstances.

Also with breadth of abilities comes breadth of weakness as well.

Fighter does not have to worry about SR, Bard does, though realistically many of the Bards spells are going to be cast on his party mates.

Undead might be immune to Sneak Attack, but they are also immune to a Bard's Fascinate/Suggestion combo, the most proactive power, and many of a Bard's potential spells.

Bardic HD are too low to melee, their armor selection is the same as a Rogue's, and unlike second edition, a Bard does not really have a very expansive weapon selection.

As I said before, the class is playable as is, and a good player can always make a memorable character, but the deck seems stacked against the Bard in terms of the mechanical spot light, with out using not really Bard like tactics say as Alter Self.

Turning one's self into a Troglodyte, a big stinky monster, and going hand to hand, just doesn't cry out Bard to me. Effective, but counter flavor.