How bad does the bard suck?

[Darklone]

I don't like the bard. I can't find a way to make the class fun to play, despite several attempts. Now I'd rather not play than have to play a bard.

Here's what I don't like.

Yipeee, attack! Ehem.

1. Can cast in light armor. ...

Can't say my Celestial chainmail is as bad as a puny dispel-able Mage armor spell. And not half as handsome.

2. Bardic knowledge. ...

DM's fiat. Ok. If you have a bad DM, any class can suck.

3. Charisma. It's a dump stat, ...

By this definition, Int and Wis are dump stats too.

4. Low hit points. ...

Yupp, agreed. I'd love to see spellcasters at d6, roguish dudes at d8 and fighterdudes at d10 hitpoints. With lesser effect of Con on the hitpoint total.

5. Can use some martial weapons. ...

Just because you can certainly doesn't mean you have to. But if you can do a lot of things and you happen to combine certain small effects, you may end up with an avalanche that makes your DM angry.

6. Bardic music. ...

Sing Inspire Courage and start to fight. Not much to do there, no upkeep and it rocks.

All these complaints about the bard class mostly show to me that here's someone not able to use the bards abilities.

No offense meant, but your post looks to me like someone trying to make the flame of this thread burn a little bit hotter...

 

[notjer]

Every class has its major weakness, Bards just have a minor weakness everywhere!

Sorry to mention it dudes but to cry about the bard smells pretty much of munchkin.

When I'm playing D&D every class can be very useful because we focus on the roleplaying. Of course we have to fight evil monsters now and then but the vast majority of opponents is NPC's, which is very natural in our case because we have a lot of political way of presenting the problems.

However, It happens we create some very powerful PC but that mostly because we're trying different classes and styles just for the fun.

 

[Greg K]

I won't say the bard sucks. I do, however, dislike the jack of all trades role.

 

[Retreater]

Well, if we're talking about classes that can be fun to roleplay and interact with NPCs, then the bards are certainly equal to all of the other classes. However, for that matter, an NPC-classed aristocrat or even a commoner can be just as enjoyable. But can those classes stand up to the rigors of harsh dungeon adventuring and wilderness travel, probably not.

In response to some of Darklone's comments....

How expensive is a Celestial chain shirt anyway? Probably pretty pricey. Now granted you can stack enhancement bonuses on a chain shirt that you can't with mage armor, but that does add up. A better build would be a psion with inertial armor that you can augment to provide better AC. (In our Freeport campaign my psion has a higher AC than even the party's tanks.)

My point was that bardic knowledge is really vague in the rules. It needs to have some quantiable mechanic behind it, besides just DC 10 basic information, DC 15 a little more than basic information, etc. Let them learn about weaknesses to opponents, convert their knowledge into bonuses to hit and damage (or even deal additional damage die like a sneak attack).

Intelligence and Wisdom aren't dump stats like Charisma, depending on the character. Wisdom provides a bonus to Will Saves and to Spot and Listen checks (two of the most heavily used skills in the game). Intelligence gives more skill points and can be used by any character class (though bruisers would probably need to invest more in Strength and Constitution). In fact, when I create rogues, I usually put Intelligence as my second highest ability score (behind Dexterity) to get great bonuses on all those thieving skills.

The problem about inspire courage is that it takes a standard action to maintain concentration on the ability to keep the party going. Meaning you can do nothing else. Unless you want to drop it, in which case it will last another 5 rounds. Compare that to a cleric's bless (which does about the same thing); bless lasts for a minute/level and the cleric can use other class abilities (including casting in full armor and shield, turning undead, casting other spells) while the bard can do nothing else but sing.

So if I'm not using the bard correctly, how is it done?

Retreater

 

[Laman Stahros]

I'm not Darklone, but . . .

In response to some of Darklone's comments....

How expensive is a Celestial chain shirt anyway? Probably pretty pricey. Now granted you can stack enhancement bonuses on a chain shirt that you can't with mage armor, but that does add up. A better build would be a psion with inertial armor that you can augment to provide better AC. (In our Freeport campaign my psion has a higher AC than even the party's tanks.)

He said Celestial Chainmail, not Chain Shirt. Celestial Chainmail is a mithral chainmail (ie medium armor that counts as light.). Bards can wear any medium armor as long as it is made from mithral, thus making it light armor as per WotC.

Intelligence and Wisdom aren't dump stats like Charisma, depending on the character. Wisdom provides a bonus to Will Saves and to Spot and Listen checks (two of the most heavily used skills in the game). Intelligence gives more skill points and can be used by any character class (though bruisers would probably need to invest more in Strength and Constitution). In fact, when I create rogues, I usually put Intelligence as my second highest ability score (behind Dexterity) to get great bonuses on all those thieving skills.

All stats can be dump stats if you let them be. Bards should be pumping their Charisma to get great bonuses on all of those bardic skills (Diplomacy, Intimidate, and so on) as well as boosting their spells. Also, the bows are martial weapons, so Dex really helps there, too.

The problem about inspire courage is that it takes a standard action to maintain concentration on the ability to keep the party going. Meaning you can do nothing else. Unless you want to drop it, in which case it will last another 5 rounds. Compare that to a cleric's bless (which does about the same thing); bless lasts for a minute/level and the cleric can use other class abilities (including casting in full armor and shield, turning undead, casting other spells) while the bard can do nothing else but sing.

Uuuuumm, no. Inspire Courage does not require a standard action to maintain the ability. It says nothing about concentration in the PHB (I just checked), so . . . no concentration needed.

So if I'm not using the bard correctly, how is it done?

Retreater

Maybe your using the bard right but your DM is hamstringing the class before you can do anything.

 

[Fishbone]

The core.bard.kinda.sucks. Just like the "right way" to make a fighter is to beg and plead for outside feats and equipment the best way to make a bard is to beg for outside feats and equipment. Anything to make Inspire Courage or Inspire Greatness better is an auto buy. Jack your Charisma and take Melodic casting so you can use Bardic Music and a spell each round. The spells you take should buff, debuff, or be ray attacks. Use that 3/4 BAB and good dex score!
A magical instrument is just like a melee class' weapon, buy the best one that you possibly can. They give rather large bonuses to your Bardic Music DCs, and that is a weapon.
Stay out of combat, use your buffs and debuffs, and make yourself useful with spells while Melodic Casting. Try to pick up a few knowstones if your Spells Known list is too small for your or you made some boo boos with spell selection. Its about as hard to make a good bard as it is to make a good fighter, i.e. not very after your first few times.

 

[Klaus]

1. Can cast in light armor. Wow. Whoopidity doo. That's a worthless ability. A sorcerer's Mage Armor provides the same amount of AC as a chain shirt (the best kind of light armor you can buy). It lasts an hour per level, has no check penalty or weight, and provides its bonus against incorporeal creatures. So that means that every arcane caster who has Mage Armor can already cast in light armor.

Hi. This is Mithral Breastplate. You can cast spells in it unimpeded. Coupled with a decent Dex, your AC is upwards of 17, even before magic enhancement. And you don't have to burn a 1st-level slot on Mage Armor.

If Complete Arcane is available, Battle Caster is a feat that lets a bard cast in Mithril Full Plate Armor unimpeded. Its +8 bonus to AC makes Mage Armor pale in comparison.

2. Bardic knowledge. The game mechanics behind this are vague. It's completely DM's fiat and provides no quantifiable benefit to the bard character or his party.

Well, everything in the game depends on the DM, right?

At any rate, the more secret the information is, the harder it is for you to get. A bard should have pretty easy access to the powers of Artifacts, since they are the stuff of legends.

3. Charisma. It's a dump stat, yet it's the focus of the bard's powers. Charisma is a dump stat because it doesn' give you extra hit points, armor class, skill points, improve saves, or increase your chances to hit and damage. [On the other hand, a rogue can pump a lot of points into his Dexterity score, which improves his AC, Reflex Saves, many rogue skills, attack bonus (if using a ranged weapon or weapon finesse), and also improves his initiative, making it more likely to catch an opponent flat-footed to deal sneak attack damage.)

Ask the Sorcerer or the Paladin if Charisma is a dump stat. Boost your Diplomacy and make even those raging orc barbarians your friends. Boost your Intimidate score and you can demoralize opponents in combat. Boost your Bluff score and you can feint in combat and attack flat-footed opponents.

4. Low hit points. What's this talk about having good hit points earlier in the thread? You are aware that it's a d6 hit die, right? That's the second worse in the game. Only the sorcerer and wizard have worse hp.

d6 is the second worst, but it's the third best! Plus, a bard gets good Will and Reflex saves, whereas Fighters, Barbarians and Paladins get only one good save (Fortitude), just like Rogues (Reflex), Sorcerers and Wizards (Will).

5. Can use some martial weapons. But why do you want to be up there in the thick of it with low hit points, crummy AC, mediocre attack bonus, etc. Yeah, elven wizards can use longswords too, but it doesn't mean they should.

Longswords? A bard should be using bows or rapiers, to make use of their Dex score (rapiers with Weapon Finesse). But coupled with good armor (see "1" above for Mithril Full Plate), the bard can dish out as much damage in melee as a cleric.

6. Bardic music. Oh, this stinks. You give buffs not unlike the bless spell. But while the music is active, a bard can't use a scroll, cast another spell, use a wand or other magic item with a command word. And most DMs probably won't let you even talk while you do it. So a cleric can cast bless (or prayer) at the beginning of a combat, and the bard can get the same effect as long as they do nothing else for the rest of the combat and can maintain concentration. Meanwhile, the cleric is attacking, turning undead, healing comrades, etc.

Inspire Courage doesn't require concentration, so it's a free action each round to keep it up. And, unlike Bless, it adds to damage rolls as well! Plus, how many Blesses the cleric can cast per day? The Bard can Inspire Courage once per level per day, so in a 10-round fight (already a stretch, since most fights last about five rounds), the bard can take a standard action to activate the Music, then go do other stuff while the effect lasts and then take another standard action five rounds later to re-activate the effect.

The weapon and armor proficiencies,

Better weapons than the rogue and cleric.

mediocre attack bonus,

Second-best in the game. At 20th level you're only 5 points behind a Fighter.

and the 1d6 hit points seem like a waste if the bard's major abilities is magic and bardic music - in which case he should be avoiding melee combat.

Not all combat is melee. If your bard plans to be in the thick of things, give him a decent Constitution and Chain Shirt or a Mithril version of medium armor.

The bard's abilities are all so lukewarm that he's woefully inadequete in magic, skills, and combat.

Magic: Sonic spells, Illusion spells, Mind-Affecting spells, several buffs/de-buffs, built-in buffing ability.

Skills: 6 points per level and a very good list, on par with the Ranger and only the Rogue gets it better. Plus a built-in Knowledge ability.

Combat: Light armor, decent weapons and second-best BAB.

Inadequate?

 

[Crothian]

2. Bardic knowledge. The game mechanics behind this are vague. It's completely DM's fiat and provides no quantifiable benefit to the bard character or his party.

If a DM has a hard time or cannot figure out if knowledge in his game is common, uncommon, obscure, or really obscure then he shouldn't be DMing. I think the ability is really good and not vague at all. IT is just a DM needs to have an idea on the rareity of knowledge.

 

[Retreater]

Hi. This is Mithral Breastplate. You can cast spells in it unimpeded. Coupled with a decent Dex, your AC is upwards of 17, even before magic enhancement. And you don't have to burn a 1st-level slot on Mage Armor.

Mithril chainmail is around 4,150 gp and mithril full plate is 10,500 gp. That's a lot of change to drop for your armor. We have a house rule (and I've seen it in several groups I've played in) that you can't own a single item worth more than 1/2 of your character's total wealth. That would mean that for a bard to afford mithril full plate he would have to be up in the mid levels. Even if you don't use this rule, your bard is going to be very limited by spending all of his starting wealth on a suit of armor.

If Complete Arcane is available, Battle Caster is a feat that lets a bard cast in Mithril Full Plate Armor unimpeded. Its +8 bonus to AC makes Mage Armor pale in comparison.

Okay. I thought we were discussing the Rules as Written, which don't include all of the strange new abilities from the Complete books. Since I have none of the class books, I can't comment on the changes made to the bard.

Well, everything in the game depends on the DM, right?

Yeah, maybe. Except things like attack rolls, damage rolls, spells, saves, hit points. All of these are things that aren't really dependant on DM fiat. I'd rather not trust the DM and trust in the abilities of my character.

A bard should have pretty easy access to the powers of Artifacts, since they are the stuff of legends.

Easy access to artifacts? This doesn't sound like the type of game I play. I've been playing D&D through several editions over the past 15 years and have never encountered a single artifact, even a minor one.

Inspire Courage doesn't require concentration, so it's a free action each round to keep it up. And, unlike Bless, it adds to damage rolls as well! Plus, how many Blesses the cleric can cast per day? The Bard can Inspire Courage once per level per day, so in a 10-round fight (already a stretch, since most fights last about five rounds), the bard can take a standard action to activate the Music, then go do other stuff while the effect lasts and then take another standard action five rounds later to re-activate the effect.

It requires singing to keep the song going, meaning you can't do anything else with a somatic component or command word. So that limits you to fighting. If you take a hit, you have to roll a Concentration check to keep it alive.

And big deal about that +1 to damage. It hardly justifies the bard class. I'd rather be a rogue and flanking about every round dealing +1d6 at first level, usable unlimited times per day.

Magic: Sonic spells, Illusion spells, Mind-Affecting spells, several buffs/de-buffs, built-in buffing ability.

Which can be cast by any other arcanist in the game. There's nothing unique to the bard. Except maybe Summon Instrument.

Oh, and if you're holding an instrument, good luck using a weapon for attack.

Second-best in the game. At 20th level you're only 5 points behind a Fighter.

Except that the fighter can weapon focus, improved weapon focus, etc. And the bard doesn't have the strength score of the fighter, because he's been beefing up his useless Charisma score.

As far as using Diplomacy to end a charging warband of orcs, does anyone use this skill correctly? It takes a full minute to use Diplomacy - by which time the combat is over - with your bard trampled to death by orc boots. There's a -10 penalty to use it as a full round action. So it's a DC 35 Diplomacy check to make the orcs even indifferent. So that means that this would be achievable by a 10th level bard with max ranks in Diplomacy, the negotiator feat and skill focus (diplomacy) feat, only 50% of the time. I'd take my chances with a wizard dropping a fireball on the orcs any day.

Sorry, I'm just not buying it.

Retreater

 

[Retreater]

If a DM has a hard time or cannot figure out if knowledge in his game is common, uncommon, obscure, or really obscure then he shouldn't be DMing. I think the ability is really good and not vague at all. IT is just a DM needs to have an idea on the rareity of knowledge.

Maybe, by your definition, I shouldn't be DMing.

Is it common knowledge where the best inn in the city is? Or is it common knowledge to know that kobolds are small-sized humanoids who are good at setting traps? Both seem to be very different types of knowledge. One is common to a city resident while the other is common knowledge to an adventurer. What about what parts of a dragon can be used for alchemical brews? To a city resident, this is really obscure information, but to a practiced wizard, probably uncommon.

There are no rules guidelines about how to set bardic knowledge DCs. There should be examples and a better defined system in place. How much information do you give out based on a DC 15 knowledge check and a DC 20?

Retreater