D&D 5E (2024) How can I do a Charisma-Investigation (or a Strength/Dexterity-Investigation if I can't use Charisma) to find a secret door?

[TaranTheWanderer]

You could, but at that point it feels very metagamey to me. Any player who tried that on me would be treated to a suspicious eye.

Yeah, that’s my point. It feels more like insight (wisdom) to search than charisma

 

[BookTenTiger]

Wouldn’t that be more like Wisdom?

This is the best answer I’ve seen but This sounds like insight to me. Which is a wisdom skill. Charisma is more force of personality.

I suppose you could reframe it: if I was a person hiding something, where would I sit, rest and talk.

A character is climbing a wall. They search for good handholds and pull themselves up deftly.

Did they use Strength or Dexterity to climb? Or maybe Wisdom to search out the handholds? Or Constitution as they take their time holding on?

The abilities all bleed into each other. The OP asked for a way to use Charisma and to me this would be the most reasonable way to do so.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

A character is climbing a wall. They search for good handholds and pull themselves up deftly.

Did they use Strength or Dexterity to climb? Or maybe Wisdom to search out the handholds? Or Constitution as they take their time holding on?

The abilities all bleed into each other. The OP asked for a way to use Charisma and to me this would be the most reasonable way to do so.

if a player described looking for secret doors by intuiting how a person might hide something, I would have them roll wisdom (insight) instead of charisma investigation.

Not that there’s anything wrong with interpreting that as charisma (investigation) but that interpretation doesn’t feel right to me if I was DMing

 

[BookTenTiger]

if a player described looking for secret doors by intuiting how a person might hide something, I would have them roll wisdom (insight) instead of charisma investigation.

Not that there’s anything wrong with interpreting that as charisma (investigation) but that interpretation doesn’t feel right to me if I was DMing

I think this is totally reasonable, but it's not answering the OP's question about how to use Charisma to find a secret door.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

I think this is totally reasonable, but it's not answering the OP's question about how to use Charisma to find a secret door.

It answers it in the sense that I don’t believe that is a good use/description of charisma to search for secret doors. I answered how I might tweak the fluff to make it more appropriate for charisma - even if I find that tweak a bit weak.

 

[Deset Gled]

A character is climbing a wall. They search for good handholds and pull themselves up deftly.

Did they use Strength or Dexterity to climb? Or maybe Wisdom to search out the handholds? Or Constitution as they take their time holding on?

The abilities all bleed into each other. The OP asked for a way to use Charisma and to me this would be the most reasonable way to do so.

Abilities are abstract, yes, but that doesn't mean they're interchangeable.

Wall climbing seems like an odd choice to pick for an example here. IMNSHO, that's an argument highlighting cases where the DM absolutely should not allow the player to use their Charisma mod, no matter how much they try and plead or justify their case.

 

[ECMO3]

I've been in groups that play like that, but it drives me crazy. The rogue is with the group, he should be able to be played by someone else or as an NPC by the DM.

Yeah we don't usually do that, and I think it is kind of a violation of player agency.

Back when I first started playing A LOT of 5E, I was worried about story inconsistencies - "Mike just randomly found us on the 4th level of an exctremely complex dungeon on the other side of a one way portal we turned off when we came through"

In actual play though that kind of thing has turned out fine. When you have fire breathing Dragons and spells that take you to another plane, the lack of Verisimilitude that results from running into "Mike" just doesn't seem to be a big deal.

 

[ECMO3]

Do people not roleplay that their character is dumb when they have low intelligence? Plus, investigation alone is a crucial skill, not to mention the various lores. I would dump strength before I would dump intelligence.

Strength is usually my Dump stat, and Constitution is usually my secondary dump stat. In this case it is Intelligence and Wisdom though because I really need a Strength of at least 13 for heavy weapons and I will be on the front line and felt I needed a 12 Constitution.

The PC is a point buy Fighter 1/Warlock 4 currently with S15 D14 C12 I8 W8 CH18

 

[Distracted DM]

Abilities are abstract, yes, but that doesn't mean they're interchangeable.

Wall climbing seems like an odd choice to pick for an example here. IMNSHO, that's an argument highlighting cases where the DM absolutely should not allow the player to use their Charisma mod, no matter how much they try and plead or justify their case.

I mean, RAW, the player is supposed to describe what their character is doing- then the DM calls for what kind of check they think it is. That's not how it ends up playing out, because the player knows what their PC is good at and wants to make use of that, buuut.. I get it. Players want to maximize their chances of success/minimize failure.

 

[Cergorach]

I'm currently DMing Undermountain, I use (passive) perception to find secret doors, investigation to actually open them. Theoretically they could use strength to open the door, but as most secret doors are stone, they would need a hammer or portable ram to do that... Not to mention the noise. I did warn the players very strongly that no stat is a dumpstat in this game and they might regret taking dumpstats (besides secret doors, we also have a LOT of brain puppies).

But if you want to use charisma, start treating the dungeon as a living entity, start talking to it. Treat it like a friend, give it a nice pet occasionally, clean up the messes you and others make, and maybe pry it's secrets loose... Whether that works or not, really depends on your DM and what kind of game they are trying to run. In our campaign this might actually work eventually, because of... Reasons...