D&D 5E How can you add more depth and complexity to skill checks?

Eric V

Legend
I think it's silly to say "make an ability check modified by your athletics proficiency bonus". It's wordy, overly complicated and adds no value. I have no idea why the dev team thought it was an improvement. I have yet to hear anyone on a stream or in real play say it that way*. Besides, the player doesn't get to decide if the proficiency applies, the DM does. The player may ask if a proficiency or different ability is appropriate but the DM makes the call.

Every standard character sheet I've seen has a list of all the skills with the calculated value right there. We use DndBeyond so it's right on the front page. Easy to understand for newbies, easy to explain.

But again, I'm done arguing semantics. When I run my games I will continue to say "Make an athletics check", feel free to report me to the RPG police. :p

*My exposure is, admittedly limited to a couple of streams and a handful of AL DMs. I'm sure someone somewhere does it.
We disagree often, but on this...I'm with you. This is the most pedantic bull**** I have seen in a while.

Having said that, I think the idea was to encourage using different ability scores along with proficiency in skill; make a DEX(Athletics) check, or a STR(Intimidation) check. I feel if they were really into that idea, they would have foregone assigning each skill to an ability (which would have been more interesting).
 

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If the situation isn't important, why are you wasting time on it?
The situation may be important, doesn't mean that description of every detail is. Do you know how amateur writers sometimes write text where every bloody sentence is overtly complicated flowery prose overflowing with abundance of adjectives, because they mistakenly think that many words and complicated sentences make the writing good? Whereas professionals control the flow of their text by varying the sentence structure, using more verbose descriptions when needed and more snappy and succinct ones where they will better serve their purpose. It can be like that.

Secondly, I'm a little leery that there are actually "abundantly clear" moments like are often claimed. This reads like a rhetorical device where you present an argument as a fait accompli without showing how such abundantly clear moments arise and how asking if a skill roll is possible provides benefit over stating an action. For starters, asking for a roll will result in a roll more often than not, even if there's a clear way to do the thing without a roll. Stating an action both centers the player in the fiction with the PC (roleplaying!) and makes it very clear what's going on so the GM can better adjudicate.
GM describes a weird animal.
Player: "What the hell was that? Can I roll nature or something?"

Yeah, perhaps this would be good opportunity for the player to reminiscent about their backstory about living with the tribe of wild elves and learning about the wonders of the natural world. And if they do that, nice, we might tie this to that. But if they don't and say what I described above, that's cool too. They have proficiency in the nature skill, which means that they know stuff about animals. Let the dice decide whether this is one of the animals they know stuff about and move on with the story.

I fully get that it would be super bland that just asking for skill rolls was how it was always done, but this of course is not how it works.

And, you might get an automatic success, which I don't think I've ever seen asking for a roll (and I played that way for years). Asking for a roll and the GM granting one is also a large part of how GM's find themselves jammed up because the PCs failed on something that was necessary for the GM's prep or doesn't really make sense. Same with succeeding -- there's a current thread about how great rolls lead to short-circuiting the planned adventure (I believe it was Dragon Heist). That never happens to me. Great actions sometimes do, but great rolls? Never.
Similar situation than the plot getting stuck because the player fails a critical roll can easily simply result from the players failing to think the 'correct' thing to do. Same with characters succeeding beyond expectations and 'ruining' the plot. These usually stem from the GM being overly committed to the one specific direction the story 'should' take and unwillingness to alter the premade plans. Common GMing problems, but ultimately rather easy to avoid.
 

Stalker0

Legend
Having just read through this thread...I found it hilarious that about 3/4 of the posts were nothing but talking about the nomenclature of ability checks vs skill checks vs X.

So one idea to consider is the idea back from 3e's epic handbook, the notion that very high skill DCs can grant abilities that would normally be considered magical.

Some quick examples:

1) Investigate can determine magic auras (ala detect magic)
2) Athletics could give limited fly
3) Insight could give some defensive precognition

If you went this route, I would start at DC 35 at a minimum. 30 might be tempting as that is the "Impossible" DC....but quite frankly I have Level 5 characters that routinely get 30s....often at least once a session.


Another idea is to give certain benefits to high Passive Scores (aka like passive perception or insight). Some examples:

1) Passive Perception: 20+.... you are immune from surprise.
2) Passive Acrobatics: 20+... you are immune from the Prone condition.
 

Oofta

Legend
Supporter
Having just read through this thread...I found it hilarious that about 3/4 of the posts were nothing but talking about the nomenclature of ability checks vs skill checks vs X.

So one idea to consider is the idea back from 3e's epic handbook, the notion that very high skill DCs can grant abilities that would normally be considered magical.

Some quick examples:

1) Investigate can determine magic auras (ala detect magic)
2) Athletics could give limited fly
3) Insight could give some defensive precognition

If you went this route, I would start at DC 35 at a minimum. 30 might be tempting as that is the "Impossible" DC....but quite frankly I have Level 5 characters that routinely get 30s....often at least once a session.


Another idea is to give certain benefits to high Passive Scores (aka like passive perception or insight). Some examples:

1) Passive Perception: 20+.... you are immune from surprise.
2) Passive Acrobatics: 20+... you are immune from the Prone condition.

Actually replying to the OP's question instead of rehashing semantics for the umpteenth time that nobody in real life really cares about? Heresy! :mad:

I don't think I would go as far as you, but I do like the concept of having different uses for skills.
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
I think one of the risks with degrees of success granting additional benefits is that it may not necessarily follow from what the player describes the character as wanting to do and how. If the player says I do X in order to achieve Y and gets some additional result Z due to a high roll that doesn't jive with X, it starts to look like the DM is establishing for the player what the character is doing.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
The situation may be important, doesn't mean that description of every detail is. Do you know how amateur writers sometimes write text where every bloody sentence is overtly complicated flowery prose overflowing with abundance of adjectives, because they mistakenly think that many words and complicated sentences make the writing good? Whereas professionals control the flow of their text by varying the sentence structure, using more verbose descriptions when needed and more snappy and succinct ones where they will better serve their purpose. It can be like that.
That such a phenomenon occurs doesn't mean that this is the same thing -- it's a false comparison until you show it's the same thing. I mean, I'm tall, and basketball players are tall, but that doesn't mean I'm a basketball player (I was terrible at it so I stuck to goalkeeping). You've created a counter-argument whereby what I was talking about is likened to an amateur writer using too many words where your approach is using the perfect amount of words like a professional writer. I mean, really? Are you sure it's not a case where I'm the professional, using the exact right amount of words to elicit an engaging scene and you're the amateur not doing a good enough job describing what's going on so everyone's just kind of confused? See how easily abusive this line of argument is, and how gauche?

I don't have a problem in my games of too much narration. I'm quick and too the point and play moves quickly. If you have to imagine my play as some terribly example of what not to do to make your points, you're admitting how weak your thinking is. Not your approach, because it's a perfectly valid and enjoyable approach. I don't have to belittle you or your playstyle to advocate for mine.

GM describes a weird animal.
Player: "What the hell was that? Can I roll nature or something?"

Yeah, perhaps this would be good opportunity for the player to reminiscent about their backstory about living with the tribe of wild elves and learning about the wonders of the natural world. And if they do that, nice, we might tie this to that. But if they don't and say what I described above, that's cool too. They have proficiency in the nature skill, which means that they know stuff about animals. Let the dice decide whether this is one of the animals they know stuff about and move on with the story.
See, to me, this is a failure on the part of the GM. They've decided that there will be a mystery of what this weird animal is, but that the solution needs to be gated behind the PCs asking the GM questions and then the dice. I'm not even going to bother with that. Either the question of what the animal is isn't terribly interesting or important, in which case it gets rolled into my description, or it is, in which case the PCs don't know what it is just looking at it and need to do something to figure it out. Neither case waits for 'can I roll nature or something' or provides that as a viable approach to the problem. I don't like play that's essentially ask the GM questions and then roll dice to find out if you get an answer -- that's uninteresting in the extreme to me. If I'm going to have a weird creature, the mystery won't be solved by asking to roll nature, or something. Being proficient in nature will likely be a significant boon, but it's not going to be the random allocation of knowledge.

I fully get that it would be super bland that just asking for skill rolls was how it was always done, but this of course is not how it works.
No, of course not. Aside from the usual terminology issues, allows skill checks enables a certain kind of play that I do not want. It enables the ask questions instead of do things play, where the GM is incentivized to keep things mysterious and unclear until players ask about it, thinking that this establishes a mystery for the players. I did that for years, and it's not all asking for skill checks, but it's a lot of that. And, it's frustrating to wait for the right skill to be asked for, and then a success, to pass whatever bar I thought was necessary to just provide information. It's disheartening. Especially since you can outright give players my notes and it won't help much at all because I don't have magic answers or precise skill checks written down and because players will still screw it up by the numbers even if they know what's in my notes (which are usually a blurb outlining a situation, a few bullet points of cool things I think might fit, and a map).
Similar situation than the plot getting stuck because the player fails a critical roll can easily simply result from the players failing to think the 'correct' thing to do. Same with characters succeeding beyond expectations and 'ruining' the plot. These usually stem from the GM being overly committed to the one specific direction the story 'should' take and unwillingness to alter the premade plans. Common GMing problems, but ultimately rather easy to avoid.
Ah, man, I was prescient with my last paragraph, because here's the old tried and true, last stand, desperate chestnut tossed at those that use my approach -- the GM is just waiting until the exact right thing is said and then play proceeds. I've seen this phrased as pixel-bitching, phrased as magic words, and a few others. It's hogwash bullroar and a lazy argument that exposes that you've no idea what I do when I run, just an imaging of a terrible game. I feel you, I did that same back when I didn't know better, either. It's natural, again because you think that someone saying there's a different way to approach the game implies that they think their way is better and that casts you as the bad GM, so you retaliate rather than try to understand. You cast them in the worst light you can think of because it lets you off the hook -- what they do is bad, so I can ignore them and not question what I do. That's fine, what you do is fine -- good even, if your table has fun. I don't want to convince you that you play wrong, because I don't think that.

But, to address this hogwash, no, there are no magic words. I even posted an example of how I prep and play above, where two different characters tries two completely different approaches to climbing a crumbled wall, and both got a fair shake and a chance to succeed. If I had magic words, then only one would have had a chance, the other would have just failed. Or, there would be some magic solution I've prepared that will automatically succeed -- somehow I've prepped this despite saying in that earlier post that my prep is not solutions, but situations. I do not know how a scene will end because I don't prep an ending, just a beginning, which is usually fed directly from the last unknown ending. I run skill challenges that have no structure at all outside of X successes before 3 failures. Magic words are the last thing that could possible describe how my game works.

I did used to use magic words, though. Back when I ran like you do, which is why I think that accusation gets leveled so readily in these discussions. I had prepped situations where I thought the solution would be obvious -- the clues, the room, etc. -- but my players didn't get it so a series of random guesses occurred until it was close enough. Because you can't violate the prep, that's cheating (or metagaming, I can't remember, probably both)! I've left that behind as well, because I no longer prep solutions or answers and even my puzzles are PC sided, not player sided, so the answer is whatever the happens through PC action declarations, not putting together the Clue clues to find out who did it with what where.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Actually replying to the OP's question instead of rehashing semantics for the umpteenth time that nobody in real life really cares about? Heresy! :mad:

I don't think I would go as far as you, but I do like the concept of having different uses for skills.
Amusingly, the "rehash" happened because someone pointed out what the rules say and then others swooped in to challenge that even being a thing. I mean, innocuous pointing out of the rules vs saying that's stupid, call it what the rules from the last editions did responses. In other words, trying to claim the high horse when you're down in the mud is a tad hypocritical.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Having just read through this thread...I found it hilarious that about 3/4 of the posts were nothing but talking about the nomenclature of ability checks vs skill checks vs X.
Its like the internet is trying to parody itself.
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
I think one of the risks with degrees of success granting additional benefits is that it may not necessarily follow from what the player describes the character as wanting to do and how. If the player says I do X in order to achieve Y and gets some additional result Z due to a high roll that doesn't jive with X, it starts to look like the DM is establishing for the player what the character is doing.

Don't people in real life often notice other things peripherally or stumble across a memory they weren't consciously aiming for?

"I think back to my days at husbandry college to remember what Atlantean goats eat."

<rolls a huge score on relevant ability + skill>

"You remember the lecture on the value of hay, legumes, and alfalfa and the danger of regularly just eating garbage. Thinking back to your studies, it also strikes you that two of these look small enough they might still be nursing."

"I carefully head over to meticulously search the western wall."

<rolls a huge score on relevant ability + skill>

"The western wall doesn't show any odd signs. But about half way through you see from the corner of your eye a small crack in the ceiling that one would never notice from much farther away."
 
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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Don't people in real life often notice other things peripherally or stumble across a memory they weren't consciously aiming for?

"I think back to my days at husbandry college to remember what goats eat."

<rolls a huge score on relevant ability + skill>

"You remember the lecture on the value of hay, legumes, and alfalfa and the danger of regularly just eating garbage. Thinking back to your studies, it also strikes you that two of these look small enough they might still be nursing."

"I carefully head over to meticulously search the western wall."

<rolls a huge score on relevant ability + skill>

"The western wall doesn't show any odd signs. But about half way through you see from the corner of your eye a small crack in the ceiling that one would never notice from much farther away."
The former seems like information you just get on a success. Gating additional information behind higher rolls is still gating information. Who's to say that you don't recall an different but useful memory on a lower roll? This is adding complexity that doesn't really serve much purpose except for adding more bits of prep that go unused.

The latter, on the other hand, has a structural problem. I don't know what the crack in the ceiling is supposed to be, but the approach of searching the western wall seems like it's not suited to finding something on the ceiling, so I'd just narrate a nothing found and not ask for a roll. If the crack on the ceiling is the important bit in the room, then I'm probably going to set up the scene so that's obvious that the ceiling needs looking at. The problem here is that this is so underdeveloped I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do with it, but the high roll leads to unconnected or peripheral success isn't going to be a tool I reach for when I can fix the problem that solves in design of the scene.
 

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