How Come There Is No "Wish" Spell?

[Stormtalon]

How the hell are we going to kill the Tarrasque now?

Hire a Psychic Warrior to kill it with Hostile Empathic Transfer? No wish needed, death guaranteed (some restrictions apply, Psychic Warrior must agree to being folded, spindled and/or mutilated by aforementioned Tarrasque, death of Psychic Warrior during the process of folding, spindling and mutilating voids this offer. Not valid in Vermont).

 

[BlackMoria]

As a spell from a spell list, wish was kicked to the curb in my game long, long time ago.

Wish is the province of gods, archdevils and genies. They are plot devices or special rewards, not something to memorize X times per day.

 

[Alzrius]

Hire a Psychic Warrior to kill it with Hostile Empathic Transfer? No wish needed, death guaranteed (some restrictions apply, Psychic Warrior must agree to being folded, spindled and/or mutilated by aforementioned Tarrasque, death of Psychic Warrior during the process of folding, spindling and mutilating voids this offer. Not valid in Vermont).

Damn right not valid in Vermont. In Vermont, we kill Tarrasques with our teeth!

Anyway, what you seem to be forgetting is that Wish had limitations even back in 1E.

I never once said that it didn't. Wish has always had limitations, but until 3E, those were some basic guidelines so the player and DM would have a rough idea of what the spell could do. Beyond that, and some basic penalties for using such powerful magic at all, it was cast by the player and interpreted by the DM, which I felt made for a lot of fun. It was only recently that it's power was compared to so many other spells that people began thinking of it as just a multi-purpose spell with an XP cost.

 

[Lurks-no-More]

Wish has a long and flavorful history, and I'm a bit sad to see it go; however, I think it is for the better.

The spell has always been troublesome to adjudicate, what with its "do anything" flavor, and the frequent player-DM antagonism it has caused.

I remember how, back when playing the blue Expert set D&D, my players' wishes resembled legal documents... "We wish for one hundred thousand gold pieces, which are to be of standard size, real, natural and non-illusory; which won't turn into something else or vanish after they've appeared; which not stolen from any treasury or hoard or bank; which are separate and movable, and not melded, joined, glued or otherwise linked into each other..."

Sad to say, although this was an extreme case, it wasn't quite unfounded or -provoked. I think I'm a better DM now.

 

[Banshee16]

Personally, I'm of mixed minds....I've had few players have their characters try to use it. And honestly, I'd really prefer that wishes be *more* powerful, but more dangerous to use...maybe they're only invoked by making a bargain with an extraplanar creature or a genie or something, instead of a wizard just casting it.

But I'm from the "old school" that saw wishes as an opportunity to do something extraordinary, but where it was risky to use it, because of what could happen with the wording. A little like making a deal with the devil. I'm not as a big a fan of the spell being able to generate a shopping list of effects.

If you want to wish to be a prince or something, the existing spell really can't help you. But maybe if the player can word the request carefully with a genie, it could be possible.

3E seemed to remove all risk from the spell, and just say "it can do X, Y, and Z, but not B"....and that just sucked all the flavour out of it.

Same as was done with the Polymorph spells. The baby was thrown out with the bathwater. So.....I want to turn my opponent into a donkey. I need a lvl 8 spell for that?

Banshee

 

[WhatGravitas]

Wish as an ability to powerful fiends, genies, pit fiends? Sure.

As a spell, that said:

"Duplicate a spell for too much XP"

or

"Ask your DM, if he likes you"

- nah, pass.

It was too random and basically just a plot device. Or a strange spell-duplication spell. Both sound neither awesome, nor interesting.

Make it a full-fledged story device, the result of obscure rituals, not a plot-device-in-a-Vancian-box.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Grog]

I never once said that it didn't. Wish has always had limitations, but until 3E, those were some basic guidelines so the player and DM would have a rough idea of what the spell could do. Beyond that, and some basic penalties for using such powerful magic at all, it was cast by the player and interpreted by the DM, which I felt made for a lot of fun.

And I feel that any spell whose rules encourage the DM to screw over his players when they use it is a poorly-designed spell. YMMV, obviously.

 

[Beckett]

Wish has needed to go ever since Dragon Kings brought out 10th level spells. "Wish- the ultimate spell, except, not anymore." With 4E changing around spell levels, where would it even land?

Too often, it became a game of trying to outwit the DM by wishing for something that couldn't be twisted. Even using it to raise ability scores, spelled out in 1E AD&D DMG was not without peril. "I wish I was stronger." "Well, your BO sure is stronger, nyuck-nyuck "

 

[Scarbonac]

*sigh*

O Wish, ye shall be missed...


Wait, hell no you won't; I'll always have the Wish spell in my games, 4e be damned.

 

[broghammerj]

Wish sounds like a great 30th level spell if you ask me. I think it's a cop out to just "wish" it away as a means to avoid difficult game design. I personally think it should be looked at as a challenge from the designers standpoint.

That being said the arguments against it are a bit difficult to comprehend. One group says they have never seen it used in all the years they have gamed. This is perhaps in relation to the power of the spell and it's intended rarity. Others say they can cast it five times per day and apparently use it so often it becomes a DM vs Player problem.

Used correctly, wish becomes a powerful plot device(the 3E version probably doesn't fit this role well as older versions). The only time I have ever seen it used is to turn the tide of battle against the BBEG to prevent a TPK, further a campaign quest which had been going on for over 10+ levels, etc. Only when people start to wish unreasonable things like, "I wish I was a god" should DM enforce more punitive interpretations. I guess people must of played with bad DMs or been outrageous players.