How Come There Is No "Wish" Spell?

[Alzrius]

And I feel that any spell whose rules encourage the DM to screw over his players when they use it is a poorly-designed spell. YMMV, obviously.

Except that's not what the rules for the spell encourage. They encourage the DM to twist the meaning of it when the PCs use it for something unfair, unrealistic, or otherwise game-breaking. Having it mimic any other spell, for example, is reasonable. So is increasing an attribute, or anything else that serves the plot, the game, or even the PCs to a degree. It's when they start wishing for a million gp, or to be a god, or for major artifacts that the DM needs to step in and enforce that they're going too far.

If wish is being misused, it's the fault of the players and/or the GM, not of the game itself.

 

[Grog]

Except that's not what the rules for the spell encourage.

That is exactly what they encourage. As an example, the 1E rules for wish suggested that if a player wished for the petrification gaze of a basilisk, the DM should have him grow a second basilisk head in addition to his own.

They encourage the DM to twist the meaning of it when the PCs use it for something unfair, unrealistic, or otherwise game-breaking.

Yes. And what is unfair, unrealistic, or otherwise game-breaking is completely up to the DM. And since the player has no way of knowing whether something he's going to wish for falls into the "unfair" category in his DM's judgment before he makes the wish, he had no way of knowing if the wish would result in his character being permanently crippled, disfigured, or otherwise screwed over. That's a badly-designed spell.

Again, one of the examples given for an acceptable wish was the character gaining the use of a +1 sword for the duration of a single combat, so wishing for anything more powerful than that (outside of a few things explicitly spelled out in the rules, like 1/10th of a point stat increases) made a PC fair game for whatever nastiness the DM might choose to visit upon him. That's hardly an "ultimate" spell, now is it?

 

[Nifft]

And what is unfair, unrealistic, or otherwise game-breaking is completely up to the DM. And since the player has no way of knowing whether something he's going to wish for falls into the "unfair" category in his DM's judgment before he makes the wish, he had no way of knowing if the wish would result in his character being permanently crippled, disfigured, or otherwise screwed over. That's a badly-designed spell.

And this is exactly why I like having Wish as an ability of specific Outsiders instead of a spell.

The PCs can talk to the Outsider and maybe get an idea what it considers reasonable, or they can rely on their knowledge of the creature and its agenda to make reasonable guesses.

Finally, the creature is the one who may pervert the wish -- and thus the PCs can eventually get revenge! This is much preferable to the "laws of the universe" perverting the wish, and the players having no one to seek revenge upon but the DM.

I love the idea that a wish from a Glabrezu must be treated differently than a wish from a Djinn. That's the kind of game I run now, and it's the kind I want to run in the future. The kind where the source of your power has its own agenda and probably price.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Daniel D. Fox]

As a spell from a spell list, wish was kicked to the curb in my game long, long time ago.

Wish is the province of gods, archdevils and genies. They are plot devices or special rewards, not something to memorize X times per day.

Agreed, agreed and agreed. This spell, along with Limited Wish, was omitted a long time ago from my homebrew.

 

[Scarbonac]

And this is exactly why I like having Wish as an ability of specific Outsiders instead of a spell.

The PCs can talk to the Outsider and maybe get an idea what it considers reasonable, or they can rely on their knowledge of the creature and its agenda to make reasonable guesses.

Finally, the creature is the one who may pervert the wish -- and thus the PCs can eventually get revenge! This is much preferable to the "laws of the universe" perverting the wish, and the players having no one to seek revenge upon but the DM.

I love the idea that a wish from a Glabrezu must be treated differently than a wish from a Djinn. That's the kind of game I run now, and it's the kind I want to run in the future. The kind where the source of your power has its own agenda and probably price.

Cheers, -- N

Except that the "creature" is still the DM screwing over the PC.

 

[lukelightning]

I agree with the "good riddance" sentiment.

Wishes in folklore and myths are not a means to accomplish things. They are more often than not plot devices that drive the entire story, often with the moral or underlying message of maintaining the status quo. A peasant gets a wish, wishes to become king, and all sorts of unintended consequences make the peasant wish he were a peasant again.

And as for the wishes of genies/demons/devils/gods, in stories the wish isn't a spell or power the genie has. It is a service the genie provides. So a genie-powered "ring of three wishes" is really ring that can summon a genie to perform a service three times. Perhaps the genie has the power to increase your strength or raise someone from the dead, or perhaps not. This is, after all, why genies have those creation spells.

A pit fiend would not have the power to cast a wish. If it wants to lure someone into some hideously evil contract, it offers to perform a service for that person in exchange for their soul or whatever. This would get rid of the abuses of shapechanging into or dominating or binding a creature that can cast "wish"

I'm not opposed to super power "anyspell" spell, or "alter reality" type spell that mimics much of what the 3e wish spell does. Just don't name it "wish" which has too much omnipotence and fairytale baggage.

 

[Scarbonac]

I

I'm not opposed to super power "anyspell" spell, or "alter reality" type spell that mimics much of what the 3e wish spell does. Just don't name it "wish" which has too much omnipotence and fairytale baggage.

Wish in all but name?


I could live with that.

 

[Drammattex]

I'm glad wish is gone. If I had my way resurrection magic would be gone too...or at least strongly altered.

Preach it.

While it's a "traditional" part of D&D, it's ridiculous how common it is.

Aragorn: Alas, Frodo is dead.
Gandalf: No problem. (casts Raise Dead)
Frodo: Alright, where were we?
Gandalf: Getting the ring to Mordor.
Frodo: Right. Let's get going, shall we?

I figure that since neither Star Wars nor d20 Modern (nor Iron Heroes!) rely on it, we can probably make a better, more dramatic system for it in 4e. Or continue to homebrew it. *shrug*

 

[Nifft]

Except that the "creature" is still the DM screwing over the PC.

If there were no such thing as "role-playing", you'd be right.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Lord Fyre]

Teleport object on a petrified Gnome.

Cheers, -- N

Nah, that just means that the party will save money by booking their travel arrangements online.

The Roaming Gnome