How Complex Should D&D Be?

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I just want a D&D system where psionics uses the same rules as magic.

Oh, and where the d100 and d12 have an important use. Seriously, why have dice that aren't hardly ever used?
 

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Ariosto, you seem to think that 1e/2e is NOT as COMPLEX as 3e but I disagree with this quite strongly since this is weighted towards DMs.

For a PLAYER, in play 3e and 4e are the least complex versions of D&D.

Roll a d20 add mod, beat a target number.

That's it...that's the whole system and even a casual player groks this. Even if you factor in feats and skills, which SHOULDN'T be counted since they don't change during play, the actual way to play the game is straightforward.

1e/2e in play use not only different dice but sometimes you want higher values and other times you want LOWER.

You're playing a gnome thief.

You roll a d6 and want to roll as low as possible (1-5) to determine if you're walking up or down in the cavern

You roll a d10 to determine if the ceiling is safe (1-7)

you roll percentile dice (and even here, I remember having to explain how to use percentile dice to a newbie since we didn't have a d100 -hard to get back then) and want to roll low

You roll a d20 to attack and ADD your bonuses together and then you subtract it from your thaco and then trying to explain that NO, the AC of 0 is lower but is better than an AC of 10. YET at the same, a chainmail shirt of +1 is WORSE than a chainmail shirt of +3.

Then there's the NWP system, initative (roll a d10 and want to roll low), saving throw (you want to roll high on a d20)

ANd these are all things that come up _INGAME_. This isn't like choosing feats and spells which can be done outside of the game (hell, both spells and powers can be precalculated which is what the 2e spell cards and 4e power card system basically does)

Again, complexity is definitely not on the PLAYER side of 3e IMO. That most assuredly goes to pre 3e D&D.
 

in some ways 4e is a bit easier

basically every power is the same and every class very similar

Calm Down

like the poster above 1e has some very wierd mix-matches for mechanics cf to roll d20, add some stuff

BUT the killer in 4e is that everyone of these similar powers does ha slittle bit n piece affects of +x and -y to all sorts of stuff

so overall 1e is less complex than 4th. You need minis for 4th, u played it in your head for 1st

3rd ed has lots powers that are quite dis-similar to each other cf to 4th so would seem more complex. Just using pen n paper they are both horrible to roll a character up for. In the main i find 3rd easier to play. and much easier to Gm, than 4th....though movment in 4th is more sensible.
 

For a PLAYER, in play 3e and 4e are the least complex versions of D&D.

Roll a d20 add mod, beat a target number.
Yeah, I can see how much simpler that is than roll a d20, add nothing, beat a target number.

1e/2e in play use not only different dice but sometimes you want higher values and other times you want LOWER.
Taking the second point first: Most of the time, it really, really, really does not matter! Anyone too innumerate to understand that and flip things vice-versa as desired might not be ready to do all the arithmetic required in 3e or 4e; as you noted above, looking up and adding something to each bleeding roll is standard practice.

I've got my own super-duper-EXTRA nifty "d20 system", and have had it for about a quarter-century. I think it beats WotC's "add X to each roll" approach hands down. However, the tables in old D&D are easy-peas-y for the more visually oriented.

Letting different dice "do the math" is often a convenience. The same +/-1 means 3.33 times as much on d6 as on d20. Sure, you can get a 2% chance by rolling d20, and then on a roll of 20 rolling again to see whether you get a roll of 13-20 -- but how is that better than just rolling d100?

In 1st ed. AD&D, the actual numbers on surprise dice indicate segments of surprise.

Quickly, now: In the 4e PHB, the Perception skill description includes 16 different DCs and modifiers; what are they? Is that really much easier than remembering to roll a d6 -- when a d6 is what you always roll for such things? Or d%, if you're doing your thief-y or ranger-y stuff that always uses d%? For most of the thief functions, d20 will do instead; and sometimes a d10 is just fine. It's the odds that matter, not the specific dice.

Don't worry; the DM will tell you what to roll, when you need to roll. All you need to do is play your role!
 
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Much of the "3E is too complex" complaining that I hear are a result of players and GM's who want to use ever and all options available.

Even in the Core Rulebooks, 3.5e has some shocking complexity. Two weeks ago, I walked a new player through the process of creating a new character. At the outset, the question was asked, "what is the simplest character?" to which the table's answer was "Human Fighter". (I actually disagree - a Half-orc Barbarian is probably easier, but never mind.)

So, to create his 1st level Human Fighter, our new player had to:

Assign ability scores. By default, this involves rolling dice six times and then assigning the numbers. But then, assigning the numbers requires at least some understanding of what each score does. And that's not even getting into Point Buy systems.

Choose race and class. Okay, that was easy in this case - but it isn't always. (Or are new players forever to be limited to the 'beginner' class?)

Assign skills. Here, the player was at least willing to accept the advice to specialise in a few skills, rather than spread out his points, so he 'only' had to choose three skills from the list of ~20.

Pick three feats from a big long list, each with a unique set of prerequisites (that he didn't understand), and each with a unique effect in-game (which he didn't understand). And, of course, because of the System Mastery effects built into the game, woe betide the player who makes a bad choice at first level!

Buy equipment. At least here it was mostly quite simple: choose a weapon or two, get the best armour he could afford (and maybe a shield), and then a few other items.

There was then the mechanical process of finishing off the character - calculate hit points, armour class, total skill/save/attack modifiers, and so forth.

The entire process of creating a first level Human Fighter took about 45 minutes, with some heavy guidance from the table. (Granted, he was slowed somewhat by us using Point Buy, but he was also speeded a lot by the table essentially picking his feats for him.) And that's one of the simplest characters in the game - for a Wizard he would have had to choose half a dozen spells from a list of ~40, and then choose two subsets from two different lists to prepare before the game began. The Cleric has dozens of spells to juggle right away. The Rogue has many more skills to choose (and is also more likely to want to split the ranks up rather than just specialise in a few skills). And so on.

In 4e, many of the character classes are easier to build characters for - the Cleric and Wizard both have few fewer choices to make, and all the classes are at least consistent in structure. (Which also has the advantage that the new player isn't stuck with a "beginner" class.) On the other hand, there's no such thing as a "beginner" class in 4e, which means that a new player has to grok a large part of the rules right from the outset.

It's too much, and I'm absolutely convinced that this loses the game an awful lot of players. So what's to be done?

The options I see are as follows:

- Do nothing. Force new players to accept and deal with the complexity. Watch their enthusiasm quickly die, and see them leave the game behind, never to come back.

- Force new players to stick with pre-generated characters for their first game(s), then with "beginner" classes for the next few, and then move them on to "advanced" options. This sort-of works, but is frankly a poor solution. One of the great strengths of the game is that it allows you to play your own custom character, and forcing the use of pre-gen characters denies that. Also, if you come into the game dreaming of being Gandalf the magic wizard, you're not going to be too pleased at being told (either effectively or in reality) that that class is too hard and you have to start with something simpler, potentially for several months.

- Reduce complexity, at least at the outset. If we want the game to be more popular (possibly if we want the game even to survive) this is a must. I'm not even saying we need to ditch all those options entirely; just defer them to higher levels so that the new player can play the game without first absorbing the 100 pages of choices and options needed just to create a character.

To that end, I recommend the following:

First, elminate System Mastery - pretty much any more-or-less reasonable choice of Race/Class/Feats/whatever must give a character that is at least somewhat reasonable to play. Otherwise, it becomes very difficult for new players and old hands to sit at the same table together - the new player will constantly fall into the "system traps" that the old hands have long since learned to avoid.

Second, reduce choices at first level. The distinction between "Elf" and "Eladrin" is probably a bit fiddly for the new player. And it would similarly be a bad idea to have several core classes that are all minor variations on the same theme. Race and class choices should consist of a fairly small set of iconic and well-distinguished options. (To be fair, D&D has always done pretty well in this regard.)

For new players, the best ability score generation method may well be 4d6-drop-lowest in order (the importance of atttributes would probably need reduced quite a lot to compensate). It's probably best if characters don't gain their first feat until 2nd level, and maybe at 1st level they should gain a rank in each class skill, rather than having to choose skills. Finally, each class should probably give a fixed set of core powers at first level.

And so, you get back to character creation consisting of: roll attributes, choose race, choose class, choose alignment (if used), choose equipment, play!
 


Even in the Core Rulebooks, 3.5e has some shocking complexity.....
snip

While I like the complexity of 4e (I did feel 3e was a little too much) the current complexity of D&D kinda reminds me of wargaming (hex) in the eighties when the monster game was in vogue and the rules were quite substancial and fiddly. Now adays I have played games with the card driven mechanics on the same theme as the older games and the game play is pretty satisfying and complex with a lot less rules easier to pick up and the total playtime a fraction of the older games.

One of the things about these games is that alot of the rules are in the cards and you pick it up as you play.

So could D&D be distilled into a basic game that you could explain in about five or six pages of rules and play your way to the current first level with the complexity accumulating as you go along and the total amount of complexity being determined by the DM or the DM+players?
 

re: Complexity in powers vs spells.

At MAXIMUM, the most a character KNOWS is 17 powers.

And all of them are so fiddly with modifiers and conditions that they each need stat card with more info on it than a typical classic D&D monster.

re: DM complexity.

2. Needing to refer to other books while in play. This actually applies somewhat to 1e/2e as well as 3e. Technically, you could use monsters that didn't use spells or spell-like abilities and this was quite possible in the low level (E6-E8) range but even in 1e/2e, once you hit around level 9, most creatures seemed to require having the PHB open as well.

Having "everything you need" in the statblock becomes less useful when that statblock is a page or more. Hey lets get rid of the need for a book by reprinting it in every statblock . Without software, I wouldn't be making custom monsters for 4E.

For a PLAYER, in play 3e and 4e are the least complex versions of D&D.

Roll a d20 add mod, beat a target number.

That's it...that's the whole system and even a casual player groks this. Even if you factor in feats and skills, which SHOULDN'T be counted since they don't change during play, the actual way to play the game is straightforward.

Are you serious?

We are forgetting conditions and all the nonsense about whose turn they end on? what the effect is? and what does that mean as it relates to the use of many other abilities that suddenly "light up" on my hotbar because condition X is in effect?


This is all applicable to low level play too. Can we really compare that kind of complexity to my Moldvay Basic fighter with a +2 to hit, damage, and open doors?

Modifiers: +2 to a d20 roll, +2 to a damage die. Done.
 

The way I see it, there are two schools of thought as regards character creation. I'm going to call them the "prix fixe" and the "a la carte" schools.

The "prix fixe" school gives you a set of prefab character concepts. If you want to be a sword-and-board fighter, you pick the Fighter class with the Sword-and-Board specialty, and that's it. Your powers and abilities are dictated from those choices.

The "a la carte" school gives you a set of discrete components, and you can mix and match to taste. If you want to be a sword-and-board fighter, you put high stats in Strength and Constitution, pick a set of attack maneuvers suitable for use with a one-handed weapon, plus some shield-oriented defense maneuvers, specialize in the longsword, get proficiency with heavy shields, and so forth.

As geeks, we instinctively gravitate toward "a la carte," because it seems to us to offer much greater flexibility and the ability to create highly tailored and customized characters. We're control freaks and "a la carte" appears to offer us control. D&D's evolution up through 3E followed that trend. I used to think that was a good thing. I disliked character classes and wanted to see them go away.

Now, however, I'm starting to believe that that view is naive. The reason is simple: Most of the apparent options granted by "a la carte" design contribute little or nothing to the character concept, and serve mainly as a way for experienced players to demonstrate system mastery at the expense of newbies. What's the difference (in 3E) between a fighter with Power Attack and one with Toughness? Concept-wise, very little. The only real difference is that one is a better fighter than the other, because Power Attack is one of the strongest feats a fighter can take, and Toughness is teh suck.

So, I think the game should re-focus on making choices serve concept, moving toward a more "prix fixe" model. What does this mean in game terms? It means that you don't generally make multiple choices within a given sphere of activity. If you want to play a sword-and-board fighter, that's the only decision you make about your combat style at chargen. All of your combat abilities follow from that one decision. No combat feats, powers, et cetera - it's all laid out for you from the get-go.

BUT, you do get to independently choose other aspects of your character concept. For example, background: You can be a sword-and-board fighter who's a noble, or a free citizen, or a peasant gone adventuring, or a former slave. Likewise, race: Human, elf, dwarf, and so on. The important thing is that none of these choices has a significant impact on your performance as a sword-and-board fighter. Each operates within its own sphere, largely separate from the rest... in WotC-speak, siloing.

This would go a long way toward making the game newbie-friendly. It would more or less eliminate the danger of making a "wrong" choice (except insofar as certain classes turn out to be stronger than others). It would also reduce the daunting array of mechanical decisions that the newbie has to make with little or no guidance, while at the same time retaining the ability to make the decisions the newbie wants to make: Are you a fighter or a wizard? Sword-and-board or two-handed weapon? Human or elf? Noble or slave?

It would also enable the designers to create much greater complexity and depth in play. Because each class would be designed as an integrated whole, instead of trying to make everything modular, each could be custom-tailored to offer a variety of tactical options.

Of course, the problem with this is that it conflicts with WotC's business model, which is based on constantly expanding the menu of "a la carte" items. If players don't have to pick new feats and powers as they level up, then how can you sell them a new book full of feats and powers? WotC would have to develop a new business model before they could make such a change.
 
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I hate to bring this up....But WOW _IS_ a success in capturing the "casual" crowd.

Personally, I don't think the actual character creation is too complex given the success of WoW.

In part, thanks to the resurgence of CRPGs (anyone remember the era post Goldbox, pre Baldur's Gate when the mags used to say "RPGs are dead" HAH!) having to make choices even before you start the game is not seen as a burden.

Hell, even a lot of first tperson shooters, the definitive "jump in and play" games make use of a class system.
 

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