How Complex Should D&D Be?

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I like my games with much less complexity than 3E (and no, I don't buy the "but 3E isn't complex" arguments). I'm very much of the opinion that no "rule" could ever fit *every* situation exactly, so trying to define things to the point 3e does (like size ratios for grapple, skill synchronicities, etc) is an exercise in futility, imho. Broad guidelines are more reasonable in my experience, and allow me to better adjudicate things on a situation to situation basis.

That said, I understand the appeal of complex systems, especially from a player-options perspective, but personally find them to be proportionately more restrictive when all is said and done.
 

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So, I think the game should re-focus on making choices serve concept, moving toward a more "prix fixee" model. What does this mean in game terms? It means that you don't generally make multiple choices within a given sphere of activity. If you want to play a sword-and-board fighter, that's the only decision you make about your combat style at chargen. All of your combat abilities follow from that one decision. No combat feats, powers, et cetera - it's all laid out for you from the get-go.

BUT, you do get to independently choose other aspects of your character concept. For example, background: You can be a sword-and-board fighter who's a noble, or a free citizen, or a peasant gone adventuring, or a former slave. Likewise, race: Human, elf, dwarf, and so on. The important thing is that none of these choices has a significant impact on your performance as a sword-and-board fighter. Each operates within its own sphere, largely separate from the rest... in WotC-speak, siloing.

This would go a long way toward making the game newbie-friendly. It would more or less eliminate the danger of making a "wrong" choice (except insofar as certain classes turn out to be stronger than others). It would also reduce the daunting array of decisions that the newbie has to make with little or no guidance, while at the same time retaining the ability to make the decisions the newbie wants to make: Are you a fighter or a wizard? Sword-and-board or two-handed weapon? Human or elf? Noble or slave?

It would also enable the designers to create much greater complexity and depth in play. Because each class would be designed as an integrated whole, instead of trying to make everything modular, each could be custom-tailored to offer a variety of tactical options.

:D This is sort of how I am modeling my homebrewed rules mashup. Three classes: fighter, cleric, magic user each with a variety of themes to choose from that grant different abilities. The skills system is independent of class and more focused on the benefits of training rather than having sky high ability scores. Each class gets equal levels of skill training and no restrictions on skill choice. Want a thief? Just choose a fighter theme focused on light weapons and quickness and train thief skills as your primary skillset-done.

I like the idea of all character types having interesting unique abilities but I dislike huge pick lists of feats & powers.
 

Dausul I agree moving the meaningful choices into the character background rather than any gamey mechanical choices is the way to go... for me personally. Others may like those gamey components and choices and denying them may not be so good. I think a game were you have a few different core versions that are all interchangable keeps the crunch flowing for wotc and keeps many groups happier than what they get with one version.
 

I hate to bring this up....But WOW _IS_ a success in capturing the "casual" crowd.

Personally, I don't think the actual character creation is too complex given the success of WoW.

In part, thanks to the resurgence of CRPGs (anyone remember the era post Goldbox, pre Baldur's Gate when the mags used to say "RPGs are dead" HAH!) having to make choices even before you start the game is not seen as a burden.

Hell, even a lot of first tperson shooters, the definitive "jump in and play" games make use of a class system.

I haven't played WoW. How many choices do you make at character creation? Knowing Blizzard, I'm guessing it's much closer to "Pick a race, pick a class, go" than it is to "Pick ability scores, pick a race, pick a class, pick a class feature set, pick two at-wills, pick one encounter, pick one daily, pick one to two feats, pick three to four trained skills, buy equipment, add up all the numbers on your character sheet*, go."

[SIZE=-2]*Unless you have DDI, in which case remove this item but insert "Get a DDI subscription," "Download character builder," and "Print character sheet" instead.[/SIZE]
 
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I hate to bring this up....But WOW _IS_ a success in capturing the "casual" crowd.

Personally, I don't think the actual character creation is too complex given the success of WoW.

To be fair character creation in WoW consist solely of choosing your race and class, that's it for mechanics. The bulk of the time is wasted choosing your hairstyle and character name.
 

In my opinion:
Games in which the imagined material has an effect on the mechanical resolution.

That has a subtlety to it that I didn't notice upon a first, cursory glance. Care to expand on this?

This reminds me of the what I would call the Uber Rule: DM Fiat. It also reminds me of that excellent house rule "The Virtual Roll" from the Ars Ludi blog where instead of a making a die roll for a social skill check, the player roleplays the situation and the DM assigns a number from 1-20 based upon how well the player roleplays.

This approach could be applied to any situation to some degree, even combat. For example, the DM could assign a "heroic bonus" based upon how the player describes their character's attack action.

Huh?? Is this another suggestion that all us "old-school" players must be freaking geniuses because we can handle tossing six-sided dice sometimes?

At semi-random ...

Slaying Strike Rogue Attack 15
[... eight lines of specifications ...]
Special: If the target is bloodied, this attack does 5[W] + Dexterity modifier + Strength modifier damage on a hit (half damage on a miss) and can score a critical hit on a roll of 17-20.

Well, that's sure got plenty of, uh, sturdy viscera of plasticine, or something. Not like the rocket science involved in rolling 5 dice for damage ... oh, except that you are rolling 5 dice for damage ... except on a hit against a target that's not bloodied, when you roll 3 ... or on a miss, when you do half damage. Ah, but at least those are all d20, eh? Er, no. D6? Well, actually, it depends on the weapon -- maybe d6, maybe d8, maybe d4.

You're taking this a bit further than I meant it. I am contrasting the core d20 game engine with the "heapism" of earlier editions in which different actions require different mechanics.

Now the problem comes (and came) when you add on all sorts of conditional modifiers (see Shades of Green quote below) and end up with an even more complex game, and all because the core mechanic is simpler and thus can "hold" more complications.

So yeah, the d20 game engine is simpler than previous editions, but the game (3E) is more complicated because of the vast array of modifiers and options that have been attached to it. It is a case of enantiodromia, really.

The problem with 3E is not its core mechanic. To the contrary, the unified, simple, intuitive core mechanic (1d20+mods for target number or higher, higher total = better), as well as the reduction of restrictions on class and race combinations, were some of its best innovations.

The problem with 3E is that, on that simple core mechanic, a lot of additional rules and statistics are heaped. Stat blocks are long; character sheets are crowded; and therefore designing anything - PC, NPC, monster, spell and so on - takes a lot of time. This made prep into a chore as a DM, and levelling up a character was also a bit complicated (especially in regard to skills).

Well, exactly. This is where many, myself included, take issue with 3E. That, with its ugly and despised cousin named System Mastery, which is basically just another variant on Revenge of the Nerds.

The way I see it, there are two schools of thought as regards character creation. I'm going to call them the "prix fixe" and the "a la carte" schools.

SNIP

Nice post. And yeah, I think you are right about these two approaches, both of which can be seen quite clearly in the Talislanta game; 1-4th editions were "prix fixe," 5th edition was "a la carte."

My view is that D&D should accomodate both, including the extremes of both rather than only its "left of center" approach ("left" being the more liberal a la carte method). Why not have three general options:

1) Archetypes or templates that would represent common and/or well playable character types. They could be pre-set race-class-culture combos or builds specific to a campaign setting (e.g. "Dunedain Ranger of the North" or "Red Wizard of Thay"). The only thing the player would have to do would be to assign ability scores and maybe choose a race.

2) Standard race-class combinations. Could still be the default mode of play.

3) Class-less play. You choose a race and then you build from there. This could also be done with a neutral class like "Adventurer" in which you can pick and choose your capacities. This wouldn't necessarily be a jack of all trades as it could be a specialist, and the player could define the character as he or she advanced rather than planning a career path from the get-go (which is somewhat inevitable with the current system, especially with the prerequisites required for many paragon paths).

D&D has never done the third option, afaik, or at least not well.

If we go back to the idea that 5th edition "should" be modular and include a simpler core set with advanced options, the core set would include the first two options with character Archetypes set to the default setting and a few core races and classes (say, human, elf, dwarf, and halfling; and fighter, wizard, rogue, and cleric). Only with later supplements would the 3rd option be introduced, as well as other races and classes.
 

Like I said earlier, 3e still adds new complexities that make it more complex than the prior editions. And it does this in the three core rules books (not with all the add-ons factored in). Case in point (for me anyway): AoOs. I have a love/hate relationship with AoO. They slow down combat and there are way too many rules to remember for when they come into play or not. At the same time, they add a lot of color to a combat and an element of strategy that can be quite fun for players and the DM. A few years back there was a thread asking if you (as DM) pointed out AoOs to your players. I replied that I didn't (which shocked most of the participants). The main reason was simple - my players preferred to play their own characters and make their own choices (or fail to make them). After all, an AoO was just that - an opportunity - not required and sometimes opportunities get missed. The lesser reason was this - I as DM had enough on my plate to remember. And it wasn't like a few taken AoOs by monsters and NPCs wouldn't remind players that they had the option to do so as well.

Unfortunately, there was still the issue of slowing down combat and by extension the game. Eventually we agreed to limit the use of AoOs to major combats only. As for trying to remember all the rules for AoOs, well, experience in using them helped to reinforce some of them, but there was still a lot of rule book referencing.

One of the things I really appreciate about True20 is the fact that AoO were dropped from the core rules (they are available again as an optional rule in the True20 Warrior's Handbook supplement however).

So yeah, I think 3e is more complex than prior editions of D&D, but I can also appreciate that a lot of people like that complexity, and some crave even more complexity (see Spycraft) for maximum enjoyment. And it's all good.

And this is why I don't think we'd ever see a universal perfect system of D&D on any thing other than the personal or game group level.

B-)
 

Why not have three general options:

1) Archetypes or templates that would represent common and/or well playable character types... [snip]

2) Standard race-class combinations. Could still be the default mode of play.

3) Class-less play... [snip]

The problem with these is that keeping them balanced against each other is insanely difficult. It tends to work out in one of three ways:

  1. The class-less option allows you to mix-and-match and produce combos that are way stronger than anything prefab. In this case, prefab builds become "traps."
  2. To prevent #1, class-less options get nerfed into oblivion, so that there are only a few ways to build class-less characters who can match the power of the prefabs. In essence, class-less now consists of a handful of ill-conceived prefabs, plus a bunch of traps.
  3. To prevent #1 and #2, prefab and class-less are developed into two distinct games. You have now split your product line down the middle. Sales of player splatbooks, which make up the bulk of your revenue, are effectively cut in half; and trying to keep all your other books compatible with both versions is going to be a monumental headache.
Lots of games have tried the "prefabs for the newbies + custom builds for the advanced players" approach. I have never seen it work out well in practice. When was the last time you saw anyone actually play one of those pre-designed characters in the Player's Handbook?

I think a game needs to choose its position on the spectrum. You can be prix fixe or you can be a la carte, or somewhere in between; but you can't stand at both ends of the spectrum at once. Prix fixe is by far the more newbie-friendly approach, and IMO that makes it better suited to D&D as the "gateway game" that introduces most newbies to the world of RPGs.
 
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I think that alot of you are running with this 'system mastery' idea a little far a field. I've yet to discover a gaming system that allows choices - even if only 'which class do you want to play' which doesn't have a degree of 'system mastery' to it. But we do ourselves a disservice to describe that with shabby marketing terms like 'system mastery' which makes it sound like that is a feature instead of a bug. I'm glad to see that 'system mastery' which was a term that WotC seems to have invented to excuse itself for deliberately printing combinations of deliberately overcosted trash filler cards and deliberately undercosted 'chase rares' in Magic the Gathering as a way of extorting the player base into buying more of their product has gotten the negative reputation that it deserves, but I don't actually believe that WotC deliberately built 'system mastery' into 3.0 because it makes no sense for them to have done so. Instead, I think 'system mastery' crept into the system the same way it shows up in every other RPG - it's hard to perfectly balance a game system and the more options you have the more likely it is that you haven't perfectly balanced it.

Let's call it what it is, poor balance. I don't think that it was ever intended that toughness was supposed to be a poor option, and I hope it was never intended that power attack was to be so dominating.

To claim that 'system mastery' was the root of the problem is to claim that WotC designers were sitting around saying something like, "It's clear Toughness is too weak for what it is, but I'm ok with that because in the next development cycle we can introduce a new feat called 'Hardy' that will be strictly superior to Toughness and that will encourage peope to buy the PH2. On the other hand, I don't think we've got enough flash in this first offering. I think its obvious alot of people will gravitate to power attack without thinking through the math. Why don't we go ahead and give it the upside those players intuitively think it has, and make it the feature ability of this release? And if it is too broken, we can always print a feat that explicitly nerfs power attack." I just don't think the developers were that cynical when 3.0 or even 3.5 was being designed. I just don't think they'd fully thought it through or play tested it enough.

I don't think there is an inherent suckitude to the idea of 'toughness' or an inherent brokenness to power attack. Tweaking them one way or the other could reverse that and make 'Toughness' a 'duh' choice and turn 'Power Attack' into 'the suck'. I think the trouble is tweaking them such that they both are interesting choices (especially without having seen them in play) is hard.
 

I'm actually a bit shocked at the poll response so far. Much more one sided than I expected.

Very interesting. Cool poll idea, even if I am iffy on internet polls :)
 

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