How Crunchy is Too Crunchy, For You Personally

[Thomas Shey]

Do you reserve the right to question the player's decisions?

When they have the same degree of options I do as a GM, and when I have the same investment in NPCs as they do in their characters, I'll consider that question relevant. Among other things, they aren't the ones making the judgment calls on rules which is the context where I'm talking about this.

 

[Jer]

My maximum crunch is around D&D 4e. Though even there I'd prefer to see a streamlined version where some of the fiddlier less-consequential bits (like Feats) are removed. That's my upper bound these days, and even there I'm not sure I'm up to learning a brand new game at that level of crunch rather than playing a game at that level that I already know. (I might be more inclined to try Strike! with the tactical combat options than actually running 4e again for example)

But on average I prefer less than that - 5e and 13th age are both about at the right level for me as a GM (though I prefer 13A combat on the GM side over 5e any day). Players in my new group are mostly 5e players and are happy with the level of it.

I will say that my maximum crunch levels have declined as I've aged. At the rate I'm going I'll be down to only wanting to play Lasers & Feelings by the time I'm in the nursing home

 

[pawsplay]

I have no real limit on how mechanically involved a game may be. My concern on "crunch" is mainly just speed of play.

 

[DrunkonDuty]

I like a bit of crunch. Game mechanics are tools with which I manipulate the game.

But the crunch should be simple enough to not slow down the game too much. (all very subjective I know.)

To give a sense - I like HERO. Most of the crunch is pre-loaded in char-gen. During game play it's mostly pretty straight forward.
Whereas I'm finding the dice mechanics of FFG Star Wars to be tiresome.

 

[payn]

My maximum crunch is around D&D 4e. Though even there I'd prefer to see a streamlined version where some of the fiddlier less-consequential bits (like Feats) are removed. That's my upper bound these days, and even there I'm not sure I'm up to learning a brand new game at that level of crunch rather than playing a game at that level that I already know. (I might be more inclined to try Strike! with the tactical combat options than actually running 4e again for example)

But on average I prefer less than that - 5e and 13th age are both about at the right level for me as a GM (though I prefer 13A combat on the GM side over 5e any day). Players in my new group are mostly 5e players and are happy with the level of it.

I will say that my maximum crunch levels have declined as I've aged. At the rate I'm going I'll be down to only wanting to play Lasers & Feelings by the time I'm in the nursing home

You might like PF2. They really bundled leveling so feats are much more manageable and took a number of ideas from 4E.

 

[johndesmarais]

I like a bit of crunch. Game mechanics are tools with which I manipulate the game.

But the crunch should be simple enough to not slow down the game too much. (all very subjective I know.)

To give a sense - I like HERO. Most of the crunch is pre-loaded in char-gen. During game play it's mostly pretty straight forward.
Whereas I'm finding the dice mechanics of FFG Star Wars to be tiresome.

My multi-decade love of Hero made this question a little difficult to answer until I really thought about. I like the high-crunch games that I already know, but am reluctant to learn new high-crunch games. Most of the games that I’ve added to my “will run” or “will play” libraries are low to moderate crunch - but u still run a lot of Hero System base games.

 

[Thomas Shey]

My multi-decade love of Hero made this question a little difficult to answer until I really thought about. I like the high-crunch games that I already know, but am reluctant to learn new high-crunch games. Most of the games that I’ve added to my “will run” or “will play” libraries are low to moderate crunch - but u still run a lot of Hero System base games.

There's something to that, but I can still put in the effort to learn something with fairly heavy crunch depending on how the crunch (not all crunch is created equal to me--I can pick up an effect based game easier than an exception based one) is, and how much it grabs me.

 

[aramis erak]

Huh. It didn't read that way to me.

But if that's the case, we'll, that's the whole point of a light system isn't it? Whatever it is, roll this standard test and see what happens.

Rules light can have several purposes (in no particular order):

1. Universal resolution
2. Framework to hang expanded systems on
3. Tight focus of rules upon thematic elements
4. Fast speed of play
5. Introductory play
6. Room for GM calls
7. allows using the rules more often

• Fate Core is aiming for #1 and #2; for some designs, it also seems #7
• Fate Accellerated is #1 and #4. As with FC, it seems to aim for #7, too.
• MLP:ToE is #1 and #5, but also happens to hit #4 as a side effect
• Many AWE/PBTA games are aiming for #3 - by not mechanicalizing anything but the moves, it focuses on those moves and their story changing effects. Most also wind up hitting #4.
• The DGP mechanics bolt on Task System for Classic Traveller was a rules-light framework, and hit numbers 1, 2, and 4. It winds up often being #6... It's also the heart of MegaTraveller and 2300 in the GDW editions, but those added a lot of bolt-on.
• Amazing Engine tried to be 1, 2, 4, and 5 all at once. It failed.
• Blood and Honor: 1, 2, 3, 4... it's uniqueness is in determination of who decides the outcome.

Now, let's look at those same systems and how much in one's face they get...

• Fate Core: Lots of rolls, lots of mechanical inputs. The rules are super straightforward and simple, but used a lot.
• Fate Accelerated: just as roll-heavy, but not as detailed, reducing handling time.
• MLP:ToE advises few rolls; entire fights, when allowed, are a single roll. It zips along.
• I can't attest personally do PBTA mainstream, but the ones I've read do discourage unneeded rules.
• DGP Tasks for Classic Traveller... in practice, MegaTraveller can be run in rules heavy mode - tables affecting one constantly, lots of suggested in rules tasks, but it can also be used as a rules light game with the tables mostly used outside session.
• Amazing Engine: it doesn't advise a rules light approach, but it definitely needs it due to the nature of the game.
• Blood & Honor: the rules precis for my players was 1 letter sized sheet. The rules were used routinely and dramatically. It doesn't feel heavy, but it's in your face at every turn...