How "different" does a new setting have to be?

[Beale Knight]

Like Whisperfoot said – this is a cool thread. Figured I’d throw my thoughts and story in here too.

Wanting something different in D&D without radically changing everything about it is what drove me to start on what became the Next Age Heroes setting. The familiar elements are all there, and with the names that everyone’s used to. Elves in the forest, dwarves underground, gnomes in the hills, humans in the flatlands (except the barbarians), and halflings scattered almost everywhere. The human society is even the traditional feudal kingdom.

All that familiarity is so the players can jump in and quickly grasp the basics before getting into their specific racial knowledge. Each race, and each barbarian clan, has a distinct social organization, political tradition, view of history and religion, and just plain old secrets. These differences can be played up or glossed over depending on the style of game you choose to run. It’s possible to play a very political game if that’s what you want.

The big twist on the setting is the size of the “known world” – its about the size of South Carolina. There’s no giant continental map ala Greyhawk or the Realms for the players to reference because no one’s explored past the various threats and obstacles that are on the fringes of the map and returned to tell what’s out there. The entire thrust and theme of the setting is that the PCs are the first ones to go out, see what lies beyond the edge of the map, and make it home. What they do with what they discover is entirely up to them, and their options are wide open.

There’s certainly a bigger world out there, and as the PCs quickly discover, there are very good reasons why almost no one who has gone exploring has returned (just like there are good reasons why the various racial societies haven’t sent out explorers for exploration’s own sake). This leads to another twist in the setting, the lack of high level NPCs. Simply put, there are almost none. This makes for a setting where the PCs can relatively soon (compared to GH or FR) become the greatest heroes in the land – which of course presents them with an entirely new set of problems and challenges.

 

[Turjan]

No, D&D is now synonymous with Fantasy- as Tolkien is synonymous with Fantasy.

Thankfully not . There is enough fantasy literature that doesn't have the slightest resemblance to D&D. Or, to give a popular example, think of Harry Potter . Btw, I try to get my inspirations for my fantasy settings out of SF literature, in order to keep things fresh. Of course, things have to be altered quite a lot in order to fit the fantasy mood, but there are still some not so overutilized ideas left with this approach.

In addition, the world is far from complete, although I have an idea of what sorts of games and the mood and feel I was going for. While I was initially hooked onto this prehistoric world dominated by elves, I've since branched out and I may want to adapt them to a pre-existing world.

I think that's a very good idea. Though you did a cool job on those prehistoric elf cultures, just replacing humans by elves doesn't make a world fantastic. No, I know that you did more than just that, as several of your cultures are quite exotic and don't have human precursors. But elves are nothing "special" on a world as long as they live there on their own. Okay, I understood that there are other races, too, only that elves are predominant, and therefore, take this as a more theoretical statement .

 

[Trickstergod]

A great example of this is Spelljammer: Shadows of the Spider Moon. It has guns and spaceships and mysterious worlds and beardless dwarves, but is also have clerics, mind flayers, elves, and drow. It is classic campaign components, but with a "twist" to make them fresh and unique.

I think Eberron is in the same boat as the above (D&D with a twist), but with alot more work done.

Settings that are radically different (Midnight, Diamond Throne) really don't give me a D&D feel (I know that they are OGL, but still). No more so than playing Warcraft or Everquest P&P and calling THAT D&D.

At the end of the day, you can drink Pepsi* (Greyhawk/D&D), Pepsi Twist (Spelljammer/Eberron) or Lemonaide (Midnight/Diamond Throne), but don't try and call a Lemonaide a Pepsi Twist or vice versa.

I...what? While not overly familiar with Eberron, Spelljammer is the most out there of all those settings you mentioned, in my opinion. Even Diamond Throne is closer to what D&D is, as I see it. Sword and sorcery, not drow and mind flayers, has always made what D&D is to me, and Spelljammer, with its spaceships, is a heck of a lot less D&D than Midnight.

This isn't so much of a "You're wrong!," just...flabbergasted. Diamond Throne certainly doesn't look to much like D&D, but Midnight, at the least, with its elves, orcs and dwarves, without anything like spaceships, seems a lot more D&D to me than Spelljammer could ever be.

But...to each their own.

 

[Afrodyte]

I think that's a very good idea. Though you did a cool job on those prehistoric elf cultures, just replacing humans by elves doesn't make a world fantastic. No, I know that you did more than just that, as several of your cultures are quite exotic and don't have human precursors. But elves are nothing "special" on a world as long as they live there on their own. Okay, I understood that there are other races, too, only that elves are predominant, and therefore, take this as a more theoretical statement .

Now the only question is what game to add these cultures to. They almost seem like a shoe-in for Midnight in lieu of the elves there. I don't own FR, so I can't say anything about that. Maybe they could be used as a way to make standard D&D less generic.

Heck, it'd be neat to see supplements that do something like that. Just have a bunch of cultures, each chapter perhaps focusing on a different race or terrain or even a particular settlement. No stat modifiers, but perhaps suggested traits based on what's there (I'm leaning more towards favored class, additional skills or bonuses to certain skills, and minor special abilities if it fits).

Some crazy things that would be neat to see. I wouldn't take them all together, but it'd be cool to explore one or more options:

Dwarves and gnomes are the same race but different ethnicities. Dwarves favoring the preservation of traditional ways and gnomes preferring ingenuity and invention. Both have the love of craft and a strong perfectionistic streak, but their values are very different. Indeed, they may very well see anything they put creative and/or emotional energy into as a craft. Very interesting possibilities for romantic relationships.

Humans and elves as the same race, but differentiated by divine or alien intervention. For their part in some great historical event, maybe a small group of humans (and I mean small- perhaps a single extended family or at most a tribe) were given inherent magic and virtual immortality as a reward for the part they played. Of course, those gifts come with their own burdens.

No halflings. They are really humans with size adjustments and ability scores arranged to fit them.

More variety in hybrids. I don't mean every combination under the sun, but half-dwarves could be an interesting addition, as would half-gnomes. Half-halflings would be cheese, so I don't include them, unless you just say they are little people as you find IRL.

How about a "real" medieval Europe where things like elves, dwarves, gnomes, etc. are not treated as mundane as a pack of M&Ms? Whether non-humans would inspire fear, hatred, envy, or love would vary, of course, but I think the rather blase cosmopolitan attitudes many d20 settings have regarding non-human races is pretty old now. The interracial strife that is built into the known history of the world is pretty passe now too. What if dwarves, elves, etc. were treated as they are because of what people don't know about them? An example that started a heated discussion on the chat was having Galadriel living in 14th century France. Here are a few possibilities I can think up off the top of my head:

1. Galadriel is burned at the stake for practicing witchcraft because she, intentionally or accidentally, upset the status quo. This is not different from the fate of many human women, so I don't know if this is a good example.
2. Galadriel, by intent or accident, frightens the local populace, and is executed or driven out by a mob. Once again, not very different from the fate of many real people, but in Galadriel's case it is probably a great deal more likely. Ditto if she inspires envy.
3. The locals revere and possibly worship her as an angel or saint. She may even become something of a living holy site people travel great distances to meet. Many may expect her to carry their prayers to God. In Galadriel's case, very likely due to her beauty and benevolence.
4. The locals accept her as a part of the land, much like the trees, rocks, and streams and is probably given respect by being left alone. Occasionally, perhaps people may leave gifts for her as a way of ensuring that whatever powers she has are used in their favor. That is, if they think she can influence the good fortune of the town. On the down side, they may expect her to do this and turn on her if they experience a reversal of fortune, or even a tapering off of good things. See #2 for what can happen.

The gist of this is that in a land dominated by humans, seeing an elf in a marketplace will not be met with, "Just an ordinary citizen with pointy ears. Move along." Conversely, a human winding up in lands dominated by non-humans are unlikely to be thought of as, "Just like everyone else, only they die quick."

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

If I had one criticism, it would be the fact that race and culture seem to be one and the same. Do all Dwarves live in ghettos ruled by a "Hidden King," or is this just something in a well-known city where dwarves are marginalized and often targets of bigotry? Is the elven disdain for humans (and the consequent treating them as insignificant at best and vermin at worst) a factor in every elvish culture, or just one? I think adding wildly divergent attitudes and customs and cultures within each group would accentuate the metropolitan feel of Urbis. These divisions need not be focal points, but I think that if they existed, it would add verisimilitude (uh-oh, that word again) to the urban feel.

I've expanded on the dwarves a bit. Here's the new writeup:

Dwarves who live in human cities tend to congregate in their own neighborhoods - ghettos that are often walled from the outside world, where non-dwarves are seen with suspicion and all wealth is carefully hidden from outsiders. These areas have often hidden traps and defenses - a prudent measure, since there are infrequent pogroms against the dwarves when the human majority is looking for some kind of scape-goat.
These dwarven enclaves are often ruled a so-called "Hidden King", a dwarf whose actual name is never revealed to non-dwaves. Sometimes they are actual exiled nobles from the dwarven realms, but members of old, established families who have lived in the same city for centuries are more common. In the best case, these dwarves are elder statesmen, judges, and respected advisors to their communities. In the worst case they are nothing more than crime lords who extort their fellow dwarves and ruthlessly crush all dissent. However, the ability of a single ruler to act quickly during times of crisis has proven very useful during pogroms, and thus most dwarves support the system. Hidden Kings are most common in the following regions: Atalus, Desert of Thunder, Flannish Cities, Hobgoblin Dominions, Lake of Dreams, Parginian Rim, and Thenares. In all these regions, dwarves have faced persecution in the past, and might again do so in the future. Hidden Kings also exist in the Eternal Storm and Great Southern Chaos, since the political situation there is too unstable to allow dwarves to prosper without any firm leadership. Elsewhere, dwarven expatriate communities are usually ruled by a Council of Elders, which thanks to the reduced threat from their non-dwarven neighbors can afford to take more time when deciding things.
Another important aspect of expatriate dwarves is from which dwarven realm they can trace their ancestry. Dwarves from Gol Algor tend to me more outgoing and freely mingle with gnomes - and in some cases, even humans who appreciate their skills. Dwarves from Gol Grungor tend to be either staunchly conservative, suspicious of changes and outsiders and usually isolationist from the rest of the city, or (in the case of many younger dwarves who were born and grew up in human cities) openly rebellious and contemptous of dwarven traditions. Dwarves from Gol Murak tend to be subdued but hard-working, and usually use a large portion of their income to support the war effort of their distant home.
Usually, the Hidden King is a member of the cultural group whose members represent the majority of dwarves in the city, and often dwarves from a different origin are seen as second class members of the dwarven community. However, in regions where dwarves from two different kingdoms are represented in roughly equal numbers - such as the Hobgoblin Dominions, League of Armach, and Lake of Dreams regions, there might be two (or more!) Hidden Kings in a single city, with their followers locked in vicious fights for dominance.

Is that better? I'll try to do something similar for the other races, too...

And you don't even need a whole lot for each group. In Sovereign Stone, for example, dwarves primarily had a nomadic horse culture (think Mongols or Rohirrim, except they're dwarves), but there was a group of dwarves who, because of physical handicap or social ostracization, do not follow this lifestyle and settle in one place, horseless. Since I'm still mad about elves, I'll use that as an example for Urbis. What if you had a small group (say, no more than one tenth to one quarter of the elvish population) who did not believe in being so calloused towards humans? What if they thought that just because something is fleeting does not mean it is less meaningful or less valuable. Consider the sunrise, or a blossom, or colorful autumn leaves. Perhaps they, either through experience or through theory, believe in reincarnation (at least for humans). Rather than dying and leaving the world behind, maybe for humans death is a form of renewal. If elves are like evergreens, always showing their full glory and never diminishing through the seasons, humans are like vines that have a short burst of growth and must be pruned, only to return again come spring.

Interesting idea. I'll see what I can make of them...

Although, seeing gnomes and dwarves as different ethnicities within the same race would be really nifty.

Well, they are definietly related, but I won't make them the same species. To my mind, anything that has different attribute bonuses is a member of a different species - these bonuses represent some rather big differences.

Of course, I could just give dwarves and gnomes the same game stats and just call them differently. But one of my design goals was to deconstruct the D&D rules and construct a world around them that really hangs together, so dwarves and gnomes have to be fairly distinct from each other...

 

[Afrodyte]

I've expanded on the dwarves a bit. Here's the new writeup:
(snip)
Is that better? I'll try to do something similar for the other races, too...

MUCH! You retained the integrity of dwarvishness while elaborating the effect history and current social situations have on them. Bravo.

Well, they are definietly related, but I won't make them the same species. To my mind, anything that has different attribute bonuses is a member of a different species - these bonuses represent some rather big differences.

Of course, I could just give dwarves and gnomes the same game stats and just call them differently. But one of my design goals was to deconstruct the D&D rules and construct a world around them that really hangs together, so dwarves and gnomes have to be fairly distinct from each other...

For the first part, that makes sense. I noticed the relation and just wondered, but given your goals, I can see why you didn't change it.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

Humans and elves as the same race, but differentiated by divine or alien intervention. For their part in some great historical event, maybe a small group of humans (and I mean small- perhaps a single extended family or at most a tribe) were given inherent magic and virtual immortality as a reward for the part they played. Of course, those gifts come with their own burdens.

Heh. I once wrote an article for Pyramid called:

Elves - A Case Study of Transhumanism in Fantasy Worlds

in which I postulated that the progenitors of elves were humans who decided to use magic to meddle in the genes of their children (hey, magic genetic engineering isn't just for breeding monsters!) to give them things like long life spans, keen senses, reduced need for sleep, an attractive appearance...

... and that forest environment elves usually live in seems awfully convenient for them, doesn't it? Lots of guardians (treants), magical steeds (giant owls and eagles, unicorns), sex slaves (dryads and satyrs... which also explains the low fertility rates among elves!), and so on.

In other words, neither the elves nor their surroundings are really as "close to nature" as they claim to be! Instead, their ancestors used magic on a massive scale to create an earthly paradise for them...

I do plan to do something similar for Urbis, but that would be deep in the background of the setting, with almost all elves having forgotten this...

 

[Afrodyte]

Heh. I once wrote an article for Pyramid called:

Elves - A Case Study of Transhumanism in Fantasy Worlds

I don't subscribe to Pyramid magazine (for personal reasons), so I couldn't read the article.

in which I postulated that the progenitors of elves were humans who decided to use magic to meddle in the genes of their children (hey, magic genetic engineering isn't just for breeding monsters!) to give them things like long life spans, keen senses, reduced need for sleep, an attractive appearance...

... and that forest environment elves usually live in seems awfully convenient for them, doesn't it? Lots of guardians (treants), magical steeds (giant owls and eagles, unicorns), sex slaves (dryads and satyrs... which also explains the low fertility rates among elves!), and so on.

In other words, neither the elves nor their surroundings are really as "close to nature" as they claim to be! Instead, their ancestors used magic on a massive scale to create an earthly paradise for them...

Interesting. Now this is a twist on an old thing that I can get into.

 

[Eosin the Red]

No, D&D is now synonymous with Fantasy- as Tolkien is synonymous with Fantasy.

That is a fairly baseless statement. D&D is not even synonymous with FRPG. It dominates but is not "one and the same." Thankfully D&Disms are few and far between in fantasy lit...we seldom see popular literature worlds with 5,000 species of intelligent beings or resurrections offered on the roadside or teleporting Mcguiver like trouble shooters hopping from place to place with little rhyme or reason. I think Hong calls it Wuxia Fantasy Fantasy lit other than that produced by WotC adheres to a more traditional model depending on subgenre. D&D is its own animal that pretends to be fantasy, it may be a subgenre of fantasy but that is about as high on the food chain as it gets and even that might be giving more credit than is due.

Right now the probelm IMO is that D&D does not support traditional fantasy at all and has moved into the realm of only supporting the way it envisions fantasy or "D&Disms". Even d20 games like Midnight, Wheel of Time, and probably Conan have huge obsitcales to overcome because their form of "differnet" is a toned down form, instead of toned up form of D&D.

Hey Jürgen,
Would you mind starting a seperate thread about your world? It is starting to hijack this one.

Thanks.

 

[Remathilis]

I...what? While not overly familiar with Eberron, Spelljammer is the most out there of all those settings you mentioned, in my opinion. Even Diamond Throne is closer to what D&D is, as I see it. Sword and sorcery, not drow and mind flayers, has always made what D&D is to me, and Spelljammer, with its spaceships, is a heck of a lot less D&D than Midnight.

This isn't so much of a "You're wrong!," just...flabbergasted. Diamond Throne certainly doesn't look to much like D&D, but Midnight, at the least, with its elves, orcs and dwarves, without anything like spaceships, seems a lot more D&D to me than Spelljammer could ever be.

But...to each their own.

I'll elaborate...

It comes down to (I guess) a matter of sacred cow slaughter. I prefer my D&D with as little bovine slaughter as possible. To me, SotSM, with the common races and classes (tweaked to fit the concept of a spacefareing setting) feels more "D&D" than the odd races and classes in Diamond Throne or the unique spellcasting system of midnight. While the latter are more sword and sorcery, they move more away from "D&D with X" formula and into "A fantasy game LIKE D&D", which isn't my cup of tea.

Nothing against any of the settings however.