How do Armor Spikes Work?

[Greyline]

I'm a little confused with when Armor Spikes inflict their additional grappling damage.

According to the description in the PHB, armor spikes inflict additional piercing damage on successful grapple attack.

I would assume this damage applies when successfully initiating a grapple, so a medium-sized character wearing armor spikes would inflict 1d3 non-lethal damage and 1d4 piercing damage during that first round. Is this right?

This is where I get confused. If the grapple is maintained, and you choose the Damage Your Opponent option on subsequent rounds, does this count as a grapple attack, dealing an additional 1d3 non-lethal and 1d4 piercing (or 1d3 lethal and 1d4 piercing if you take a -4 to your grapple check)? Or do you need to choose the Attack Your Opponent option (and the -4 to your attack roll) instead?

Armor spikes have a crtical multiplier of x2. I can see how this would apply if you had to Attack Your Opponent to use them, and maybe this is the only time it does apply, but if that's not the case, how does one get a critical on an opposed grapple check? (This would apply to your basic unarmed strikes too.)

Any clarification would be appreciated.

 

[Epametheus]

The spikes on the armor of a medium-sized creature deal 1d6 damage.

I actually figured that the armor spike damage replaced your unarmed damage; instead of bruising the victim for 1d3+Str mod, you impaled them for 1d6+ str mod. You do regular unarmed damage on the attack that actually establishes the grapple, and can use the spikes for grapple checks afterward. At DM discretion, bonuses from the spikes that would normally count towards attack rolls (like enchantment bonuses) may count towards the grapple check modifier.

I don't think you can crit on normal grapple checks, though you can use the spikes much the same way that you'd use a shortsword or any other light weapon in a grapple.

I found the combination of plate mail, improved grapple (I had it as the feat from Oriental Adventures), and enchanted armor spikes to be fairly effective. Sadly, the campaign ended before I could try out having the Shocking enchantment on the spikes.

 

[the_mighty_agrippa]

You slam them into your enemies, where the break the flesh on impact and rip into the muscle beneath. S'nasty.

 

[Camarath]

I think that the first sentence of the Armor Spikes description uses some odd language. This my interpretation of the issue.

The melee touch attack to Grab the target does not deal damage. Also the opposed grapple check to Hold does not do damage. I think that to damage an opponent you must use either the Attack Your Opponent option or Damage Your Opponent option even when using Armor Spikes.

I believe that what Armor Spikes description means by "grapple attack" is the Damage Your Opponent option. You could also use the Attack Your Opponent option if you wished because Armor Spikes are light weapons.

I do not think that the Armor Spikes do unarmed damage plus 1d6 (medium). It is my opinion that they do 1d6 damage (as listed in the chart) and that the "extra piercing damage" talked about in the text does not mean damage in addition to normal damage but means damage which is greater that normal damage.

I do not know if you can Crit. on a Grapple Check. The rules say that "A grapple check is like a melee attack roll." but I am uncertain how this applies to criticals.

[Edit: Of couse if you have the Improved Grab ability or the OA Improved Grapple feat you may start a grapple on an attack that did damage but I do not think that you could use your armor spikes to make those attacks.]

 

[Greyline]

Ep and Cam--thanks for the quick replies. And yes, medium damage is 1d6, not 1d4. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought the wording for the armor spikes entry was odd. I'm pretty sure you folks are right in assuming that the damage from the spikes replaces the damage normally caused in grappling (regardless of what my players argue). It says under the Starting a Grapple section that the first hold deals unarmed strike damage, which I would think would mean damage from the spikes in this case (as you pull your opponent onto the four-inch pieces of steel welded to your chest). And I think I'm going to rule that you can use the spikes either as a light weapon (hitting your opponent with the spikes on your forearm) or by impaling your opponent further (the Damage Your Opponent option).

Any reason you couldn't get a grapple critical if you roll a natural 20 on your opposed roll? You could roll the threat against the opponents same grapple total, or both grapplers could roll opposed checks again (as they twist to cause or prevent the thumb from entering the eye, or the wrist snapping).

Also, shouldn't armor spikes make it harder for someone to escape a grapple? It's one thing to tear yourself away from someone's grasp, it's another thing to tear yourself off a hook.


Thanks for the advice.

Greyline

 

[Diirk]

The standard damage + piercing vs just piercing could be argued either way, grapple checks can't critical tho, so any decision to do so would be purely a house rule.

The critical range/multiplier is for when you use them as a weapon.

 

[Camarath]

It says under the Starting a Grapple section that the first hold deals unarmed strike damage, which I would think would mean damage from the spikes in this case.

You are right the Hold does deal damage sorry about that. I argee that you should be able to use the Armor Spikes.

 

[jessemock]

Any reason you couldn't get a grapple critical if you roll a natural 20 on your opposed roll? You could roll the threat against the opponents same grapple total, or both grapplers could roll opposed checks again (as they twist to cause or prevent the thumb from entering the eye, or the wrist snapping).

Also, shouldn't armor spikes make it harder for someone to escape a grapple? It's one thing to tear yourself away from someone's grasp, it's another thing to tear yourself off a hook.
Greyline

I've been building a Grapple Monkey myself, through Beyond Monks, so these questions are near and dear.

First, I don't know what to do with a natural twenty on an opposed grapple check. A crit seems reasonable: that's the starting threat range for an unarmed attack; you're using the check to deal damage; it's a grapple check, because you're discounting armour class--and that last one seems to be the only difference. Certainly, I have plenty of vital areas available to me--why not?

It seems reasonable that armour spikes should provide a bonus to the attacker's grapple check or a penalty to the opposed roll: the person attacked has to do more than just avoid or break the grapple; he has to do so while trying not to impale himself on the spikes.

Trying to grapple someone who is wearing spikes should probably cause a penalty to the attempt as well.

How about we make the question slightly more complicated: razored armour. Should that require an active attack roll or should it just add damage to any grapple hold damage?