How do I help the Fighter?

[Naoki00_]

Throw in some Book of Iron Might (Malhavoc)?

Problems I'm seeing:

There's no cleric.

You're nerfing items. There is no good fix for this in 3rd Edition. There's some "low-magic rules" that you can probably find in Unearthed Arcana, but they're not good.


Items give a fighter bigger bonuses than they give non-spellcasters. On the other hands, fighters are very heavily item-dependent. A wizard missing a Headband of Intellect is missing a few bonus spells, and more crucially, 3 points off of save DC. A fighter needs that Strength-boosting item and a magic weapon for offensive purpose. (Note that rogues are also affected by this; it's hard to pull of a sneak attack if you can't hit, and you want your Gloves of Dexterity and magic short sword to ensure this... with your lower BAB.)

For defenses, a fighter needs magic armor, maybe a magic shield, a ring of protection, maybe an amulet of natural armor, and more options as they gain levels, just to make up for AC never improving. For defenses, a wizard needs to be able to cast Mirror Image, and have a backup in case what he's facing has true seeing or something.

What surprises me is that the fighter's hurting the most. The ranger is a pretty weak class in 3rd Edition, and the rogue, while not being as weak, has fragility issues that should be affecting it even more than the fighter (especially without items).

Other than the rogue, none of these PCs get social skills as class skills. I'm not sure why the fighter is doing worse than the other PCs.

firstly- we would use more books if we had them. But I should address that the world uses rather low magic rules but we make our own. Healing magic is a lost art, and most of the healing is from potions (their cheaper then in the book obviously as thats one of the only accelerated healing agents) Also we really just say "if your character's backstory would allow it as a class skill, it is. The fighter and the wizard both have diplomacy since one grew up dreaming of knightkood and learning how to be chivalrous, and the other is a teacher at the last school of the arcane.

as for 'needing' magic armor and weapons, thats not exactly true. we use the 3.5 system basics, but not much else other then it's skeleton. magic items are only 'needed' should some mythical monstrosity with double their CR show up, and thats an end dungeon encounter normally. you can get your armor enhanced up to +6 or 'flawless' grade(still non magic) in our tables, with any blacksmith good enough, and same for weapons. anything higher then that calls for some kind of master craftsman.

Because it's low magic that means low magic users for both the players and the enemies, usually saves are less an issue then health. It's much more 'realistic' in a sense but thats not really the correct term I think. very little magic is used or shown, and the only reason we have the wizard is because one person came up with a fantastic storyline with him. so we're not nerfing items, we're not including them at all because they usually unbalance our games. (we metagame too usually in higher magic campaigns)

Defensively the fighters pretty fine, +4 plate armor, +3 shield, 6 dex, and his fighting talent (burning a feat to permanently gain prowess in a fighting style, something we also do differently) giving him an additional +2, giving him a normal 23 AC. he only gets HIT half the time because I roll the enemy good or it's a melee enemy as good as he is. His lacking is in how little he ever gets to do recently. Their in a city of people mostly trained in archery and beast taming (so lots of rangers and animals) and since he purposefully takes the aggro on the animals, he's singled out while the others pick off the ranged users, only problem with this is how many he keeps taking on at a time (5 tigers was the last encounter he took on, if he hadn't had the ranger hidden away pecking at them he'd have died)

when I ask something I can give him I really don't mean something out of the book, that won't really do much other then the basic things that he can get in town non-magically (spent a week studing a subject, +1 int ect) and something like extra speed doesn't really help when most enemies aren't any faster then he is or aren't by much. defensive spells aren't really an option as his character won't accept them (self imposed honor code, his character is supposed to kind foolish like that) and most spells that aren't "I point the deathball in that direction and hope it doesn't hurt me too" have a 30-40% chance of just not working due to how hard it is to use and the wizard doesn't know them well since he specialized in fire and ice magic. (walls of fire do help sometimes though)

I'm out of ideas as to a creative method of making him able to do better against large numbers or rangers or both even, thus my posting here.

 

[Naoki00_]

-There are two prestige classes that you might want to refer to, in order to build a campaign-specific prestige class for your non-magic item using fighter. Take a look at the Forsaker prestige class in the Masters of the Wild (3.0) and the Occult Slayer prestige class in the Complete Warrior (3.5).

we don't have masters of the wild but I DO know someone who might be able to lend us his Complete Warrior book, and I had thought of designing him a class for his knighthood (more around a specific code and weapon style then the generic one)...so if the Occult Slayer looks good that will definitely help

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

But I should address that the world uses rather low magic rules but we make our own. Healing magic is a lost art, and most of the healing is from potions (their cheaper then in the book obviously as thats one of the only accelerated healing agents) Also we really just say "if your character's backstory would allow it as a class skill, it is.

Thanks for answering this question. Are they getting enough healing? I can't tell that from the answer you gave.

The fighter and the wizard both have diplomacy since one grew up dreaming of knightkood and learning how to be chivalrous, and the other is a teacher at the last school of the arcane.

The fighter and wizard are the only social characters, so why is the fighter doing so badly? Rolls? RPing?

Because it's low magic that means low magic users for both the players and the enemies, usually saves are less an issue then health.

You never use poison, or monsters with spell-like abilities?

Defensively the fighters pretty fine, +4 plate armor, +3 shield, 6 dex, and his fighting talent (burning a feat to permanently gain prowess in a fighting style, something we also do differently) giving him an additional +2, giving him a normal 23 AC.

As you mentioned low-magic, I assumed this meant "low item"; that's the usual way the term is described. As mentioned by other PCs, more details like you're now providing are helpful, it prevents "wasted advice". His AC should be 8 +4 [+4 plate] +5 [+3 heavy shield] +6 (Dex) +2 [fighter talent] based on what you said in the quote giving a total of 35. That's so high for a 8th-level fighter, it's creating the exact opposite problem as I said.

he only gets HIT half the time because I roll the enemy good or it's a melee enemy as good as he is. His lacking is in how little he ever gets to do recently. Their in a city of people mostly trained in archery and beast taming (so lots of rangers and animals) and since he purposefully takes the aggro on the animals, he's singled out while the others pick off the ranged users, only problem with this is how many he keeps taking on at a time (5 tigers was the last encounter he took on, if he hadn't had the ranger hidden away pecking at them he'd have died)

Five tigers isn't really a fighter-screwing encounter, but it's more than a little odd. I can't picture so many tigers attacking the guy wearing inedible metal armor. (Tigers are large, too, there wouldn't have been much space.) Why didn't any of the tigers run past him and eat some of the weaker, tastier PCs instead?

As for archers, if the fighter isn't that fast, and therefore can't quickly close with them, it would make sense for them to get good terrain (eg on top of buildings, shooting from windows, etc) and then shoot the PCs most dangerous to them (the PC ranger and wizard).

The only other solution I can think of is use "stealthier" encounters. Since he's in a city, villains can't just rush the PCs, as the watch will be notified and descriptions taken. The PCs can be lured to urban "mazes" where NPC rogues can dart out of the darkness and attack whichever PC is closest (so, often not the fighter). Even if the PCs bunch up and run after a rogue, others can strike (or shoot) at their backs from other alleys.

 

[Naoki00_]

Thanks for answering this question. Are they getting enough healing? I can't tell that from the answer you gave.

Actually they are, but as a rule, the potions take a bit to work, so using them mid battle isn't really effective (about 2 minutes to take effect), but they heal 4d12+ the crafters skill bonus (the ranks you have in it)

The fighter and wizard are the only social characters, so why is the fighter doing so badly? Rolls? RPing?

That I think is more rolls then anything, but also we go by the "the roll makes it possible, your words make it probable" rule, basically if your character says something outlandish or offensive, it doens't matter it you rolled a 50 diplomacy check, the person your talking to will react a certain way.

You never use poison, or monsters with spell-like abilities?

Poison yes, but something with natural spell-like powers would be as rare as the rest of the magic stuff, they ran into only one so far and that wasn't even an encounter but a plot relevant NPC (a Sanctified Lich)

As you mentioned low-magic, I assumed this meant "low item"; that's the usual way the term is described. As mentioned by other PCs, more details like you're now providing are helpful, it prevents "wasted advice". His AC should be 8 +4 [+4 plate] +5 [+3 heavy shield] +6 (Dex) +2 [fighter talent] based on what you said in the quote giving a total of 35. That's so high for a 8th-level fighter, it's creating the exact opposite problem as I said.



Five tigers isn't really a fighter-screwing encounter, but it's more than a little odd. I can't picture so many tigers attacking the guy wearing inedible metal armor. (Tigers are large, too, there wouldn't have been much space.) Why didn't any of the tigers run past him and eat some of the weaker, tastier PCs instead?

As for archers, if the fighter isn't that fast, and therefore can't quickly close with them, it would make sense for them to get good terrain (eg on top of buildings, shooting from windows, etc) and then shoot the PCs most dangerous to them (the PC ranger and wizard).

The only other solution I can think of is use "stealthier" encounters. Since he's in a city, villains can't just rush the PCs, as the watch will be notified and descriptions taken. The PCs can be lured to urban "mazes" where NPC rogues can dart out of the darkness and attack whichever PC is closest (so, often not the fighter). Even if the PCs bunch up and run after a rogue, others can strike (or shoot) at their backs from other alleys.

No we still have lots of items, about as much as you'd expect in a real world trying to outfit every soldier it can, and well, stealth is a bit of a no go right now, seeing as the city is filled to the brim with people on the other side of the PC's (enemy nations city basically) and some the archers ARE the guards, though I do like the maze idea, I hadn't designed the city in too small detail yet and could definitely add in something like that.

As for why the fighter is getting all the enemy hate, it's because he is a bit of a massive target, he tries to make it a point that he's seen, and the other aren't. he takes all the hits and looks imposing, while the others stab the enemies in the back/shot in face/throw fire. Only problem is that now his tactics aren't exactly profiting and his character is starting to lag in the damage and use in combat department.

As for the tigers hurting so bad, their slightly altered tigers using poisons and alchemical processes (the nations experiments on super soldiers) so they have a barbarians rage with their pounce ability, needless to say 2 of them got the drop on the fighter and full attacked him down pretty good before the other 3 showed up. he was just a crit or full attack from death before they were finally dead.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Actually they are, but as a rule, the potions take a bit to work, so using them mid battle isn't really effective (about 2 minutes to take effect), but they heal 4d12+ the crafters skill bonus (the ranks you have in it)

Poison yes, but something with natural spell-like powers would be as rare as the rest of the magic stuff, they ran into only one so far and that wasn't even an encounter but a plot relevant NPC (a Sanctified Lich)

Seeing how the PCs have such high AC and don't need to worry about saving throws much, it seems healing is not much of an issue.

That I think is more rolls then anything, but also we go by the "the roll makes it possible, your words make it probable" rule, basically if your character says something outlandish or offensive, it doens't matter it you rolled a 50 diplomacy check, the person your talking to will react a certain way.

Is he saying "dumb" things? There's nothing you can do about that.

As for why the fighter is getting all the enemy hate, it's because he is a bit of a massive target, he tries to make it a point that he's seen, and the other aren't. he takes all the hits and looks imposing, while the others stab the enemies in the back/shot in face/throw fire. Only problem is that now his tactics aren't exactly profiting and his character is starting to lag in the damage and use in combat department.

The "drawing aggro" strategy shouldn't be working anymore. The enemy should realize by now that while this guy is locking them down, the other PCs are going to stab them in the back/shoot them in the face/roast them with fire.

So the PC fighter needs something new. What feats does he have? Maybe he has so many feats he's forgetting to use them.

As for the tigers hurting so bad, their slightly altered tigers using poisons and alchemical processes (the nations experiments on super soldiers) so they have a barbarians rage with their pounce ability, needless to say 2 of them got the drop on the fighter and full attacked him down pretty good before the other 3 showed up. he was just a crit or full attack from death before they were finally dead.

Well, I guess you can't expect tigers to make good tactical decisions, especially when they're hopped up on alchemical potions.

 

[Naoki00_]

Seeing how the PCs have such high AC and don't need to worry about saving throws much, it seems healing is not much of an issue.

Well, HIS AC is the one that doesn't need help, but the others are crafty enough to avoid direct combat usually.

Is he saying "dumb" things? There's nothing you can do about that.

Point, I don't really worry as much about this issue thankfully.

The "drawing aggro" strategy shouldn't be working anymore. The enemy should realize by now that while this guy is locking them down, the other PCs are going to stab them in the back/shoot them in the face/roast them with fire.

So the PC fighter needs something new. What feats does he have? Maybe he has so many feats he's forgetting to use them.

Well it wouldn't still be working if anyone was left to tell the others in the city, they've been pretty good about picking the runners off. I'm considering letting the Fighter try and befriend one of the experiments, like a more intelligent animal or similar.

Well, I guess you can't expect tigers to make good tactical decisions, especially when they're hopped up on alchemical potions.

yeah they tried eating the first thing they found.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Well, HIS AC is the one that doesn't need help, but the others are crafty enough to avoid direct combat usually.

How are they doing this? If you shoot at someone or throw fire at them, they notice, and they'll at least react.

The villains might need to hire some sort of tactical advisors (high Int fighters, unless you want to use stuff from Book of Nine Swords) to tell the other minions not to just shoot at the nearly-invincible guy.

(Incidentally, if the fighter's offense is so weak and his defense so high, he might want to sell his really good armor and get some better weapons instead. Can he buy a flaming or aligned sword? Those really crank the damage up.)

Well it wouldn't still be working if anyone was left to tell the others in the city, they've been pretty good about picking the runners off. I'm considering letting the Fighter try and befriend one of the experiments, like a more intelligent animal or similar.

There are two ways for the villains to avoid this.

1) They can have a "designated observer" at the scene to observe the battle and report afterward. If they don't do anything but look, the PCs are unlikely to focus on them. There's also not anything that will distinguish them from other passer-by (unless the PCs are evil and literally kill all witnesses).

2) The villains can learn what happened afterward. They can talk (Diplomacy, Gather Information) to witnesses afterward, an easy task if some of them are watchmen. They can investigate the ground to get clues (eg lots of bad guys were shot, so why are they only worried about the big guy with a melee weapon?) and might even be able to use magic, rituals, or psionics (depending on setting) to get a better idea of what had happened here. In other words, the villains cannot keep making the same mistakes.

 

[Naoki00_]

How are they doing this? If you shoot at someone or throw fire at them, they notice, and they'll at least react.

Well the other three have a good system for normal enemies, only attack the ones focused on the fighter and stay out of sight, wizard or ranger shoots one, who notices them, and then the rogue who was working his way around finishes his buddy or him, this isn't fool proof of course and I'm going to be showing that next encounter with opposing rangers with trained dogs (much harder to sneak or fool)

The villains might need to hire some sort of tactical advisors (high Int fighters, unless you want to use stuff from Book of Nine Swords) to tell the other minions not to just shoot at the nearly-invincible guy.

I actually really like this idea, and I'll probably add it in, though it's reletivly early in the city so they won't nessisarilly have figured the entire scope of the PC's plan.

(Incidentally, if the fighter's offense is so weak and his defense so high, he might want to sell his really good armor and get some better weapons instead. Can he buy a flaming or aligned sword? Those really crank the damage up.)

well that would be a magic item, one of chaotic endless fire none the less, so something rather high level in our world. but he is only using a +1 sword since he shelled all his money on his armor, so i might just drop him a better sword on one of the guards bodies and see if that helps things.

There are two ways for the villains to avoid this.

1) They can have a "designated observer" at the scene to observe the battle and report afterward. If they don't do anything but look, the PCs are unlikely to focus on them. There's also not anything that will distinguish them from other passer-by (unless the PCs are evil and literally kill all witnesses).

2) The villains can learn what happened afterward. They can talk (Diplomacy, Gather Information) to witnesses afterward, an easy task if some of them are watchmen. They can investigate the ground to get clues (eg lots of bad guys were shot, so why are they only worried about the big guy with a melee weapon?) and might even be able to use magic, rituals, or psionics (depending on setting) to get a better idea of what had happened here. In other words, the villains cannot keep making the same mistakes.

too number 1, I also like this idea, the few that DO know about the PC's being there will probably start doing this, allong with the above mentioned dogs, and to number 2 they probably will when they actually get to it, it's a good sized city and they've been good enough at covering up WHO killed the men it almost looks like a civil issue (they purposefully have made an effort to try and make it look like the guards and soldiers killed each other) partly why he's using the weapon he is, as it's the basic guards weapon and not one more uncommon.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Well the other three have a good system for normal enemies, only attack the ones focused on the fighter and stay out of sight, wizard or ranger shoots one, who notices them, and then the rogue who was working his way around finishes his buddy or him, this isn't fool proof of course and I'm going to be showing that next encounter with opposing rangers with trained dogs (much harder to sneak or fool)

Only attacking the ones focusing on the fighter wouldn't work, as that would still draw attention from others. (In real-life combat, you always leave a "rear guard" or other soldiers who don't immediately attack; said opponents are available to target other PCs.)

Once the wizard or ranger has shot, nothing short of invisibility will hide them. (The ranger gets an ability at 13th-level that lets him do this, but obviously he's not there yet.) As a result, they will no longer be out of sight and will still draw aggro.

As for the dogs, look up the Wild Cohort feat. Treat it like a template and add it to the riding dogs (that's another way of saying "big dog"; note the trip attack). Make them really vicious looking dobermans and the like to make it obvious these aren't just regular big dogs. (The "template" adds Hit Dice, which will boost their Listen and Spot checks.)

Wild Cohort link: Random Encounters: Wild Life - Animal Companions for Any Character

I actually really like this idea, and I'll probably add it in, though it's reletivly early in the city so they won't nessisarilly have figured the entire scope of the PC's plan.

That's why they'd hire advisors. I'm not saying the advisor would know what to do before combat starts, but once it does, they should be able to quickly figure out what the PCs are doing and give the appropriate orders.

I don't know how open you are to new books, but if you can get your hands on Book of Nine Swords, pick one of the classes and use the White Raven line of tactical powers. That'll make it unmistakable that the warlord in question is a commanding officer and not just a grunt with a higher-than-average Intelligence score.

well that would be a magic item, one of chaotic endless fire none the less, so something rather high level in our world. but he is only using a +1 sword since he shelled all his money on his armor, so i might just drop him a better sword on one of the guards bodies and see if that helps things.

That was a bad idea on his part. He's optimized himself out of a job. The opponents should just ignore his weak attacks, rushing past him and drawing attacks of opportunity if necessary, in order to get at the other PCs. In addition, he can only lock one opponent in combat and even if he has Combat Reflexes, the most he can do is give a weak attack for each one rushing by him. After a couple of rounds of laughing off the weak damage, the villains should figure this out.

too number 1, I also like this idea, the few that DO know about the PC's being there will probably start doing this, allong with the above mentioned dogs, and to number 2 they probably will when they actually get to it, it's a good sized city and they've been good enough at covering up WHO killed the men it almost looks like a civil issue (they purposefully have made an effort to try and make it look like the guards and soldiers killed each other) partly why he's using the weapon he is, as it's the basic guards weapon and not one more uncommon.

Who is doing most of the killing? Your party does have a wizard. Burned bodies (even if the guards weren't killed by Fireball) should get the guards hunting for known (and worse, strange) wizards.

Someone in the guard should start making Gather Information checks.

This is the Urban Tracking feat from the d20 Future SRD, but can be adapted for bounty hunters in a fantasy setting.

Link: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/msrd (Occupations, Skills, Feats)

URBAN TRACKING
You can track down the location of missing persons or wanted individuals.
Benefit: To find the trail of an individual or to follow it for 1 hour requires a Gather Information check. You must make another Gather Information check every hour of the search, as well as each time the trail becomes difficult to follow, such as when it moves to a different area of town.
The DC of the check, and the number of checks required to track down your quarry, depends on the community population and the conditions:

Population DC Checks Required
Fewer than 2,000 5 1d4
2,000–9,999 10 1d4+1
10,000–49,999 15 2d4
50,000–99,999 20 2d4+1
100,000–499,999 25 3d4
500,000+ 30 3d4+1

Condition DC Modifier
Every three creatures in the group being sought –1
Every 24 hours the quarry has been missing or sought +1
Tracked quarry “lies low” +5

If you fail a Gather Information check, you can retry after 1 hour of questioning. The GM rolls the number of checks required secretly, so the player doesn’t know exactly how long the task requires.
Normal: A character without this feat can use Gather Information to find out information about a particular individual, but each check takes 1d4+1 hours and doesn’t allow effective trailing.
Special: You can cut the time per Gather Information check in half (to 30 minutes per check rather than 1 hour per check), but you suffer a –5 penalty on the check.

If the guards find the PCs, they can "stake out the place", surrounding it. A high number of guards aren't necessary (or higher level guards aren't necessary) if they can put a few on the roof (one over each door) with nets. That's entangling, restraining, or however you want to run it. Each guard should carry a few tanglefoot bags and either thunderstones or plain whistles. They can work in pairs, with one member of each pair being a rogue or ranger (you're doing this for the Listen and Spot checks). Of course, at least one or two of the guards should be fairly high level.

 

[Stalker0]

It sounds like the fighter is just heavily optimized for defense (and is doing a good job if he tanked 5 tigers long enough for the party to kill them). Perhaps he is comparing his damage to the rest of the group, who sounds a lot more frail but have been given the benefits of his great tanking so that frailness hasn't factored in as much.

You could create some custom feats to help with the damage, and tailor them to the scenarios he's encountering a lot. For example, if he keeps fighting lots of enemies at once.


Mob Fighting
Benefit: For every additional enemy adjacent to you past the first, gain a +1 to attack.


Or perhaps he could give us the shield and go THW if he wants to go for the bigger damage.