How do I help the Fighter?

[Tuft]

I think the main problem is that you are trying to play a heavily modified D&D game with standard D&D classes and rules and it doesn't work well. 3.5 is designed around the assumption that each PC will have a certain amount of magic items at any given level and will have easy access to healing magic. Since your fighter is receiving the brunt of the damage, he is feeling the effects of your low magic setting the most. For him to be effective, he is going to need access to a lot of healing and a good way to boost his defenses and damage. Another thing to consider is that sword and shield is very inferior than using two handed weapons. He could probably at least double his damage output with a two handed weapon and power attack. If you insist staying wit the low magic setting, you should at least give him one good magic item, like a cloak of displacement or boots of flying, to keep him from getting mangled every combat. Otherwise, you should probably just use Iron Heroes for your games.

Yes.

Cash/treasure is really "the other kind of xp", even if it isn't explicitly labelled as such, and the character abilities you buy for this other kind of xp is embodied in magic items. This is true whether there are magic stores in the world, or you have to do with what you find during adventures.

This second track of abilites is not created equal with the primary one, though. Since magic items are more flexible than the more rigid class abilites/feats (more true for 3.x than 4, as 4E magic items tend to be rather inflexible), they are more important to the more inflexible classes (cf wizard vs fighter). Also, for spellcasters magic items tend to duplicate what they already can do, so they get less out of this second track...

It's not just about the pluses too, but about all-over flexibility: Mobility, skillboosts, handling odd situations.


An hopefully illuminating example from another system:

In old Shadowrun, you had both cybered characters and spellcasters. To simplify: If you used cyber, you primarily wanted cash to upgrade your cyber systems. With xp you could raise your skills, but cyber was the main force multiplier. As a shaman spellcaster you wanted xp to get more and better spells, and cash meant much less.

Guess what woukd happen if the GM said: "I want you to scrounge, so I'll just give you 50% of the normal cash. Instead I'll double the XP..."

 

[Naoki00_]

I think the main problem is that you are trying to play a heavily modified D&D game with standard D&D classes and rules and it doesn't work well. 3.5 is designed around the assumption that each PC will have a certain amount of magic items at any given level and will have easy access to healing magic. Since your fighter is receiving the brunt of the damage, he is feeling the effects of your low magic setting the most. For him to be effective, he is going to need access to a lot of healing and a good way to boost his defenses and damage. Another thing to consider is that sword and shield is very inferior than using two handed weapons. He could probably at least double his damage output with a two handed weapon and power attack. If you insist staying wit the low magic setting, you should at least give him one good magic item, like a cloak of displacement or boots of flying, to keep him from getting mangled every combat. Otherwise, you should probably just use Iron Heroes for your games.

yes we use the basics of the 3.5 system, but even the encounters are entirely different and for the most part we scrapped the entire normal CR method BECAUSE it expects you to be covered in magic items which to use seems both unrealistic and take away from the character. even if I did put in something so cheesy (we're a bit extreme, anything that allows a character to always do something physically impossible for anyone but a mage such as the boots, is pretty game breaking in smart hands with our system. As well as the "my character can do this and this, but I'm battle worthy only because of all these glowing things." doesn't really make you feel that powerful) I don't really know about Iron Heroes, so if I can learn more about it I definitely will.

I know normally a two handed weapon is better then a shield for damage, though at level ten he can take a week to train further in his shield usage, bascially it gives him an improved shield bash. He can make use it anytime something provokes an attack of Opportunity against him, bash them with the shield and unless they can pass a fortitude save the action they attempted is just wasted as they get mashed in the face. the rogue and ranger are aiming for similar weapon skills with the bow and daggers.

I however have recently spoken to the player and he does in fact feel that he isn't able to help the party as well as he would like other then being a distraction. so I'm going to try and let him shine a bit more, give him a better weapon and maybe a strong/smart animal cohort (he's yet to use that leadership feat and handle animal check)

 

[Naoki00_]

Yes.

Cash/treasure is really "the other kind of xp", even if it isn't explicitly labelled as such, and the character abilities you buy for this other kind of xp is embodied in magic items. This is true whether there are magic stores in the world, or you have to do with what you find during adventures.

I do understand our point, but we've never really had this problem. straight cash isn't just lying around in real life is it? you don't just appear to find chests with items and gold in it after all. Typically they get wealth by doing bountyhunting jobs or other similar adventuring work for cities or a military and most of the wealth goes into their base of operations (making a guild), they're town (to get access to better smiths, apothecaries, reteaching magic and the like), and lastly on their own equipment which is usually pilfered from other enemies.

Xp isn't so much an issue, they've actually advanced in level pretty fast due to luck and lots of action.

 

[I'm A Banana]

[MENTION=99243]Naoki00_[/MENTION] :

Don't take this the wrong way, but the house rules you guys are using is the reason the fighter is lagging so far behind.

Let's suss them out:

we don't go by the "i'm taking this class now" thing, you don't get any other class unless your character somehow would learn new things in story,

If you'd like to help your fighter, you want to make sure in such a game that you aren't too heavily narrative. And by this, I mean that the characters have a large chance to go "off-script" and do whatever they want, that you don't have tightly planned events, or that you at least give them weeks/months/years of "down time" they can use to pursue other tasks. The character failed to be a knight, but can the player just say "My character tries again" and actually try again? Can they direct the story like that? Because if not, you're sort of saying, "Sorry, Charlie, you're doomed to be one thing and suck until I let you not suck."

We as a group boycott magic items

Okay. To help out your fighter (and probably the rest of your party), you want to look at ways of re-introducing magic item effects, without them being magic items. That +1 sword? It's not magic, it's just really well made. That +5 Vorpal Sword is in the same camp. Maybe dwarf-forged from starmetal or something. A cloak of displacement? Well, it's elf-woven feythread, it bends light around it.

magic is something purely chaotic and near uncontrollable

I hope your spellcasters have a spell failure chance!

smart enemies and range differences

Does the guy not have a backup crossbow or something? There's some solid ranged attack options in there, with all the feats he's getting.

His character also is portrayed as very brash and glory seeking, hoping to do amazing (sometimes stupid) things to gain the recognition he needs...he purposefully takes the aggro on the animals, he's singled out while the others pick off the ranged users, only problem with this is how many he keeps taking on at a time

It's a cool character hook, but it sounds like this kind of character might be doomed in your games.

Now I don't want him to die since I have several plot related hooks that are pretty reliant on his character and I really enjoy his portrayal and execution of it

Instead of death, you might want to use DIRE CONSEQUENCES as a threat. Even if they get knocked out, they won't die, but they might regain consciousness naked in a goblin stewpot, with the orc army marching on their home village (or something). Them dying is basically an excuse for you to have something horrible happen to the world, or to the part of the world that character values. Don't want your cherished Uncle Rodrigo to get taken with the bubonic plague? DON'T DIE.

something I as a DM could slip into the next treasure hoard (a rare occurance of a magic item thats not so cheesy) or something maybe a spirtual ancestor might give (bonuses or a level in a class that isn't a knight, but would assist him) or maybe even something like a special mount....I just don't really know what to give him that won't break the game.

You've got a very different concept of "break the game" from me, but it's always fun to ride dragons. Or griffons. Or pegasi. Ancestral spirits can give him a solid ranged attack, make him a better hunter, or channel his primal fury. And magic items that are not "magic" should be fine.

Healing magic is a lost art

Well, I suppose a brash and reckless character should expect to spend a lot of time on the floor bleeding out then. He will have to become smarter, more strategic, and more restrained. Character development!

defensive spells aren't really an option as his character won't accept them (self imposed honor code, his character is supposed to kind foolish like that)

Oy. In exchange for not taking magical buffs, he should receive help from the gods of honor or combat or something....help that mimics those magical buffs.

and most spells that aren't "I point the deathball in that direction and hope it doesn't hurt me too" have a 30-40% chance of just not working due to how hard it is to use and the wizard doesn't know them well since he specialized in fire and ice magic

Hey! Your magic is unreliable! Neat.

I'm considering letting the Fighter try and befriend one of the experiments, like a more intelligent animal or similar.

This is a real point in favor of letting him have some awesome mount of some sort. Those tigers? Let him tame one. Give it more drugs and have it sprout wings. Or domesticate a manticore. Or whatever.

i might just drop him a better sword on one of the guards bodies and see if that helps things.

If he's having trouble hitting, it will. Otherwise, you're going to need a bigger boat...er...broader solution.

Solutions:

Mob Fighting
Benefit: For every additional enemy adjacent to you past the first, gain a +1 to attack.

YES.

Also:

IRON EFFING HEROES, and maybe look at E6. Both of those seem to have the kind of feel you're going for, and might mean some less-extensive house rules.

 

[Naoki00_]

@Naoki00_ :

Don't take this the wrong way, but the house rules you guys are using is the reason the fighter is lagging so far behind.

Let's suss them out:

If you'd like to help your fighter, you want to make sure in such a game that you aren't too heavily narrative. And by this, I mean that the characters have a large chance to go "off-script" and do whatever they want, that you don't have tightly planned events, or that you at least give them weeks/months/years of "down time" they can use to pursue other tasks. The character failed to be a knight, but can the player just say "My character tries again" and actually try again? Can they direct the story like that? Because if not, you're sort of saying, "Sorry, Charlie, you're doomed to be one thing and suck until I let you not suck."

well thats not impossible, we usually just use a few days to weeks span each time they go back to their home town, but you can't just 'try again' at becoming a knight, it's something given to you for great valor or something similar, and really he may not get it till very late game for character reasons, he knows this and is perfectly fine with it, seeing as his goal isn't so much the knight class but "knighthood" in game.

Okay. To help out your fighter (and probably the rest of your party), you want to look at ways of re-introducing magic item effects, without them being magic items. That +1 sword? It's not magic, it's just really well made. That +5 Vorpal Sword is in the same camp. Maybe dwarf-forged from starmetal or something. A cloak of displacement? Well, it's elf-woven feythread, it bends light around it.

well I did address this earlier, expert smithes can enhance a weapon up to a +6 while the legendary ones are needed for better and a good enough honed edge takes days to do, but can give a max 2d6 extra to damage for the first 10 encounters (needs to be sharpened again after that). Vorpal is still around, but is a sort of legendary weapon that slays beasts of myth thing. and well...yes we've done some similar things, but we don't use magic items because we know that they aren't needed at all. if it wasn't for the current situations I think the fighter would be doing much better, he's just not making the smartest choices I see.

Magic and melee shouldn't mix to us, and in our world melee is usually superior. Magic like effects are still the same effects that aren't your character being awesome, just the items.

I hope your spellcasters have a spell failure chance!

well of course XD

Does the guy not have a backup crossbow or something? There's some solid ranged attack options in there, with all the feats he's getting.

And he doesn't carry a ranged weapon, mostly because the order of knights he's wanting to become hates ranged weapons and sees them as dishonorable combat (which would be a weakness if they weren't the best ones at ranged deflection and defense as well as normal fighting), other then that he's though about it (the character, not the player), but he doesn't like how it feels to kill a person without looking them in the eye.

It's a cool character hook, but it sounds like this kind of character might be doomed in your games.

well not to bad...this is just the first time I've run such stealth heavy parts with a pure melee fighter, and his choices I've figured out are also whats hindering him.

Instead of death, you might want to use DIRE CONSEQUENCES as a threat. Even if they get knocked out, they won't die, but they might regain consciousness naked in a goblin stewpot, with the orc army marching on their home village (or something). Them dying is basically an excuse for you to have something horrible happen to the world, or to the part of the world that character values. Don't want your cherished Uncle Rodrigo to get taken with the bubonic plague? DON'T DIE.

heh, good point, I may do that if it does come to it.

You've got a very different concept of "break the game" from me, but it's always fun to ride dragons. Or griffons. Or pegasi. Ancestral spirits can give him a solid ranged attack, make him a better hunter, or channel his primal fury. And magic items that are not "magic" should be fine.

well when I do break a normal game I can be a major munchkin and cheese fiend, all in legal terms (course DM can just say no), but he knows he doesn't have to be a pure fighter he'd just really prefer it.

Well, I suppose a brash and reckless character should expect to spend a lot of time on the floor bleeding out then. He will have to become smarter, more strategic, and more restrained. Character development!

much so!

Oy. In exchange for not taking magical buffs, he should receive help from the gods of honor or combat or something....help that mimics those magical buffs.

well thats actually part of the reason theirs so little magic, the gods aren't really there...well..ok I'd have to go into lots of story but divine things are just not available thus far heh.

Hey! Your magic is unreliable! Neat.

I can't tell if you being sarcastic or not XD, but yes it is, Magic is something mortals just shouldn't try to control without some serious investment, it's like if a person really did try and control the undiluted power of a lightning bolt through their body...it could end VERY badly.

This is a real point in favor of letting him have some awesome mount of some sort. Those tigers? Let him tame one. Give it more drugs and have it sprout wings. Or domesticate a manticore. Or whatever.

well maybe not mount per-say, more like a druids animal companion I'm thinking, though it's probable he'd use it as a mount too. Though I gotta ask whats with so much advice about making him fly from people? maybe it's just us, but flying it's something we enjoy often in games..it makes things usually much to easy in the hands of a competent person.

IRON EFFING HEROES, and maybe look at E6. Both of those seem to have the kind of feel you're going for, and might mean some less-extensive house rules.

Thanks a lot for the link, and well...we'll always try and change the game for one reaosn or another heh.

 

[Gundoggy]

After recently reading the ADDICT article about initiative in 1E (available on Dragonsfoot), I realized Gygax had addressed this issue, unfortunately few people fully understood the rules.

1. The initiative of weapon speed vs. spell casting time typically favored the fighter. In 1E any hit disrupted the spell. Mage didn't get dex bonus for casting which helped.

2. A little known rule in 1E is that with characters with multiple attacks vs. characters with 1 attack the poor guy with 1 attack ALWAYS hits between the guy with 2 attacks. So even if mage uses a wand, he'll hit after fighter.

2E and 3E took away many of the risks of spell casting against a tough fighter which resulted in power inflation. And that's not even considering all the power inflation caused by runaway stat bonuses in 3E.

 

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

A few things I'd suggest to amp up the fighter a bit w/o making him terribly OP would be to give him a spiked shield or armor that has a chance of doing a bit of damage back to the attacker and allowing him to use the shield as an offhand weapon, I know Pathfinder has rules regarding the usage of a shield with a spike on it to inflict some decent damage.

Just a few ideas, like em or hate em, that's what I'd consider doing to help him out a bit and keep him happy.

Magical Item suggestions:

Some kind of item that would allow him to blink a few times per day. Like a ring of blinking that allows him to blink as a minor or move action, this would allow him to move in closer much faster and take out some squishy ranged combatants who are targeting him from afar and gets him into the middle of the fight pretty quickly.

Or if you want to give him more defense - perhaps a cloak of displacement which gives enemies a % of a chance to totally miss him even after they roll their d20 to hit, they would still have that % chance to miss him due to his displacement, just like a displacer beast.

 

[talok55]

I know someone with the book that might lend it to us, heck it might make a really good class for said fighter, or have something for the rogue and ranger.


This might be your best answer. If you can get a hold of a copy of book of nine swords, and let the fighter use some stuff from it (either switching to or getting levels of warblade or crusader or getting some martial study feats to get some of their powers) it could help a lot. The book of nine swords really is the "magic for martial types that isn't really magic" book. The classes in that book scale better with magic users than the fighter in 3.5. Using material from this book plus the wild cohort feat, could really help the fighter shine.

 

[Greg K]

This might be your best answer. If you can get a hold of a copy of book of nine swords.

Second best. First, is Book of Iron Might (Malhavoc)

 

[Oversquid]

Not sure if your problem has been answered yet, as I haven't read the entire thread, but I feel like putting in my two copper pieces...

I personally agree with the OP with the Magic Items being used too often in a cheesy manner to grant extraordinary abilities, so my suggestion is to not bring out more magic items, but rather to bring out maybe an NPC that can teach the Fighter a thing or two about how to use the Sword-and-Board. Perhaps an NPC who is a knight who, after some RPing between him and the Fighter, gives in and teaches the Fighter a sword technique that can remove either a daily usage of a spell or a use of that spell slot at random from an enemy caster, or maybe two on a critical hit.

Or perhaps maybe the Fighter isn't all about damage as we can tell, he is a gallant figure, so maybe his role isn't in cleaving foes in half, but in making it much easier for the foe to get cleaved in half. So like I said about the destruction of prepared spells, or maybe the Fighter learns another technique that can remove X amount of Damage Reduction for a short time, or perhaps another one that can dispel spell protections from other casters.

In this case, I don't think anything in any splat-book or rule-book will be able to help you, so like you were saying, we need to make our own rules. I guess all I have to say is use your imagination, and find things that hinder the other's ability to bypass encounters, and make it so the Fighter can "break the hinderance".

Again, Sword-and-Shield is not for damage, but more of a protective and support style, so think about techniques maybe not just for the sword but for the shield as well that can help. Also, don't make those techniques require feats if it comes to that. Yes, its not a "balanced" solution, but in the scope of a game like this, the only "balance" needed is the kind that ensures that everyone is contributing to the group in their own way. Then if all the players and you are having fun with this "unbalanced" fighter, then "balance" is a pretty meaningless thing. I'm sure you knew that though, but I think it bears repeating.

I'll end this post with a quote I think by Gary Gygax, if I'm quoting someone else, please correct me.

"In the end, you don't need rules". Rules are a tool to ensure everyone is playing on the same kind of field. If those rules are no longer doing that, then those rules are no longer useful. Make your own rules in that case.

Good luck!