How do I turn Powergamers into Roleplayers?
- Thread starter Kestrel
- Start date
Sialia
First Post
Another thing to consider is how important the roleplaying scenes are to the forwarding of the action. I've played in gaems where the time spent roleplaying really did seem like endless timewasting before we got on with the plot--which was mapping tunnels and killing monsters. (I didn't say these were good games--just games I've been in that discourage roleplaying.)
Good roleplaying opporunities must be integral to advancing the action. When the players roleplay, they are rewarded with useful activity. They get information they need, they get goodies, they feel important.
Also, it really helps if the GM is unihibited about doing silly voices, accents, speech patterns, etc. and gets up from the chair, out from behind the screen. If the GM never switches form ordinary speaking and reading voice, the players won't. The GM sets the tone for the level of goofiness in the room. Players don't want to be goofier than the GM, because they're trying to psych out what makes the GM tick. Be generous with rewarding things that make you laugh. In any case where a GM has given unspoken pluses to success for things that make him or her laugh, the players try harder to be amusing.
A game I played in recently had only a teeny tray tabel for the GM. Everybody else sat on couches around the room. There was no where to roll dice but on a book in your lap (awkward) on the floor (uncomfortable) or by getting out of your chair and walking acorss the room to roll on the GMs table. And within a short while, everyone was standing around in a cluster. We'd all stood up and sat down so many times, we were no longer glued to the chairs. It wasn't LARPing, but it was a very intense experience. Since the GM didn't want to deliver lines from a sitting position to players who were standing, she stood up, and then we were eye to eye with no battle map, no minatures, no chips between us. And when her eyes got all narrow and she did the sepulchural voice in a dead whisper, well, I didn't have to roll any dice to know what my character was feeling.
Good roleplaying opporunities must be integral to advancing the action. When the players roleplay, they are rewarded with useful activity. They get information they need, they get goodies, they feel important.
Also, it really helps if the GM is unihibited about doing silly voices, accents, speech patterns, etc. and gets up from the chair, out from behind the screen. If the GM never switches form ordinary speaking and reading voice, the players won't. The GM sets the tone for the level of goofiness in the room. Players don't want to be goofier than the GM, because they're trying to psych out what makes the GM tick. Be generous with rewarding things that make you laugh. In any case where a GM has given unspoken pluses to success for things that make him or her laugh, the players try harder to be amusing.
A game I played in recently had only a teeny tray tabel for the GM. Everybody else sat on couches around the room. There was no where to roll dice but on a book in your lap (awkward) on the floor (uncomfortable) or by getting out of your chair and walking acorss the room to roll on the GMs table. And within a short while, everyone was standing around in a cluster. We'd all stood up and sat down so many times, we were no longer glued to the chairs. It wasn't LARPing, but it was a very intense experience. Since the GM didn't want to deliver lines from a sitting position to players who were standing, she stood up, and then we were eye to eye with no battle map, no minatures, no chips between us. And when her eyes got all narrow and she did the sepulchural voice in a dead whisper, well, I didn't have to roll any dice to know what my character was feeling.
Belen
Legend
A reply for Kestrel
Kestrel,
You sound a lot like me, or the GM that I used to be. I had players who walked all over me. One guy used to find creative uses of spells. For instance, he somehow cheesed a spell that I wrote! However, I learned how to deal with power gaming in that campaign. Here are some things that you may find useful:
1.) Modules are written with combat in mind. Any module that WOTC produces will be heavily combat oriented. The reason for a GM is to fix the holes left in the module. If you run a module, then you must tailor it to your world. If you play in a established world, then make it your own. I once ran the original Temple of Elemental Evil. As a 1e adventure, it was 100% combat-minded, yet the adventure ended up with more story than combat and it took nearly a year to run a module. You have to supplment your own RP and minor adventures and hooks into any adventure.
2.) Did I hear that you have NPCs helping them!? Never, ever run NPCs as permanent editions to the party. There are a few reasons for this:
a. In combat, you have to beat yourself. You have to attack the PCs with the monsters, but are then responsible for fighting them too. This is way too much conflict of interest.
b. Our cheesemeister, powergamers use the NPCs to find out GM knowledege, even if you never give them useful info or use the NPCs to steer things on a course you like, these gamers will always let you do the work.
c. If you want RP, then why would you have yourself stuck in a situation where you'd have to have the NPC you're running with the party talk to the NPC that is talking to the party. This just looks like you talking to yourself and gamers will watch rather than interact.
d. If they cannot handle the adventure with only three or four PCs, then tough. Run something else, lighten the load, or let them die. It is the job of the PCs to survive, not the job of the GM to make certain that they survive.
3.) Be consistant.
4.) Have consequences: You know that old adage "There is always someone out there smarter than you." Well, there is always one NPC that is better than a party member. I call it Karma. If a player starts talking like he can survive anything, then I have his karma catch up with him. For instance, I had this one fighter who constantly made fun of the other players in the group because they had died before. He treated people like crap. After he got in the face of a lord, I had the lord hire an assassin to get the fighter. Guess what happens to any sleeping character who fails there listen check? The fighter had to make a fortitude save DC 10+ the damage dealt. Hmmm.....sneak attack....the save ended up being 56. The fighter did not roll a 20, therefore he died. Get the pciture? Eventually, the others ressurrected him, but he never made fun of them again.
5.) Make your own stuff. I saw that you had some of your own players post. Don't worry about what you write so much. You can place module in the framework of your own writing. It takes a bit more work, but they will find something unique far more fun than a carbon-copy module.
6.) NPCs!!!!!!! Have them interact with NPCs. They do not have to be good NPCs. In my last campaign, this evil barbarian ranger followed the party around. He would get to a village before them with his cronies and butcher the village. For a while, the PCs felf impotent and hopeless as they could not save anyone. Japheth would visit them at night an gloat. The one time they attacked, all five of them lay near death and he gloated all the more. It became a goal for them to get Japheth, although they had a hefty fear of him. They would plan traps, interact with NPCs such as constables and innkeepers just to get word of Japheth or find a way to get him. The power gamers became roleplayers because they had to get Japheth.
I am sure I have more suggestions, but I am done for now. Write me if you want to talk more sometime. I am happy to lend my XP.
Dave
david@jbmr.org
Kestrel,
You sound a lot like me, or the GM that I used to be. I had players who walked all over me. One guy used to find creative uses of spells. For instance, he somehow cheesed a spell that I wrote! However, I learned how to deal with power gaming in that campaign. Here are some things that you may find useful:
1.) Modules are written with combat in mind. Any module that WOTC produces will be heavily combat oriented. The reason for a GM is to fix the holes left in the module. If you run a module, then you must tailor it to your world. If you play in a established world, then make it your own. I once ran the original Temple of Elemental Evil. As a 1e adventure, it was 100% combat-minded, yet the adventure ended up with more story than combat and it took nearly a year to run a module. You have to supplment your own RP and minor adventures and hooks into any adventure.
2.) Did I hear that you have NPCs helping them!? Never, ever run NPCs as permanent editions to the party. There are a few reasons for this:
a. In combat, you have to beat yourself. You have to attack the PCs with the monsters, but are then responsible for fighting them too. This is way too much conflict of interest.
b. Our cheesemeister, powergamers use the NPCs to find out GM knowledege, even if you never give them useful info or use the NPCs to steer things on a course you like, these gamers will always let you do the work.
c. If you want RP, then why would you have yourself stuck in a situation where you'd have to have the NPC you're running with the party talk to the NPC that is talking to the party. This just looks like you talking to yourself and gamers will watch rather than interact.
d. If they cannot handle the adventure with only three or four PCs, then tough. Run something else, lighten the load, or let them die. It is the job of the PCs to survive, not the job of the GM to make certain that they survive.
3.) Be consistant.
4.) Have consequences: You know that old adage "There is always someone out there smarter than you." Well, there is always one NPC that is better than a party member. I call it Karma. If a player starts talking like he can survive anything, then I have his karma catch up with him. For instance, I had this one fighter who constantly made fun of the other players in the group because they had died before. He treated people like crap. After he got in the face of a lord, I had the lord hire an assassin to get the fighter. Guess what happens to any sleeping character who fails there listen check? The fighter had to make a fortitude save DC 10+ the damage dealt. Hmmm.....sneak attack....the save ended up being 56. The fighter did not roll a 20, therefore he died. Get the pciture? Eventually, the others ressurrected him, but he never made fun of them again.
5.) Make your own stuff. I saw that you had some of your own players post. Don't worry about what you write so much. You can place module in the framework of your own writing. It takes a bit more work, but they will find something unique far more fun than a carbon-copy module.
6.) NPCs!!!!!!! Have them interact with NPCs. They do not have to be good NPCs. In my last campaign, this evil barbarian ranger followed the party around. He would get to a village before them with his cronies and butcher the village. For a while, the PCs felf impotent and hopeless as they could not save anyone. Japheth would visit them at night an gloat. The one time they attacked, all five of them lay near death and he gloated all the more. It became a goal for them to get Japheth, although they had a hefty fear of him. They would plan traps, interact with NPCs such as constables and innkeepers just to get word of Japheth or find a way to get him. The power gamers became roleplayers because they had to get Japheth.
I am sure I have more suggestions, but I am done for now. Write me if you want to talk more sometime. I am happy to lend my XP.
Dave
david@jbmr.org
Not every bad game is lack of roleplaying
Despite what everyone seems to think, I don't believe your entire problem is that your players are not roleplaying. In the eyes of a mainly combat-oriented GM, I wouldn't have any fun with that party either. Powergaming needs to be a challenge, as well. So, I would recommend making your players stick to the XX number of points to build their characters. The DMG recommends 28 or so. So, giving them 32 is generous.
I personally give my players 36, since that's the Forgotten Realms. I did give them 28 before, but a particular player of mine griped enough that I went to 36. That same player griped about other things. And finally, that player griped enough about how I handled combat (straight out of the book) that he left my game. He's an old buddy of mine, and so I was somewhat hurt when he left. But, I think the game will go better.
I had the same group for Shadowrun, and they also ran all over everything in Shadowrun. It seems that everyone had much more fun in that group before they knew the rules, they roleplayed a lot more, and everything went well. Later, the minmaxing started happening. I can respect minmaxing, as long as it doesn't seem that I throw a 2 round challenge at the party, and can never exceed that.
I am weak at roleplaying as a GM. I know that about myself. I find most roleplaying happens at the beck and call of the player. So, if you find yourself weak at roleplaying, you might have to find a party which will help you achieve that. This might not be the party. My best roleplaying-as-the-GM came from a smaller party, who were close friends of mine, and who respected my goal. (2 people, happened to be husband and wife.)
If you just want to increase the challenge, you might just have to drop the module and start running through a harder module. When my party ROLLED their stats, I realized that they were effectively a challenge rating above where they should be. I started tossing higher levelled monsters at them. They beat 2, and lost to 1. I would have had a TPK, but I had the enemy mage toss them into slavery. The very next module, some poor decisions on their part resulted in a TPK with an equal level encounter. So, there's no telling how the power gaming aspect of things work. (And they were a 54 point rolled party. I gave them a once in a lifetime deal: Everyone can roll, ONE TIME ONLY, but everyone has to use the same person's rolls. A party member rolled two 18s and a 17. I was mildly astounded and peeved.)
Despite what everyone seems to think, I don't believe your entire problem is that your players are not roleplaying. In the eyes of a mainly combat-oriented GM, I wouldn't have any fun with that party either. Powergaming needs to be a challenge, as well. So, I would recommend making your players stick to the XX number of points to build their characters. The DMG recommends 28 or so. So, giving them 32 is generous.
I personally give my players 36, since that's the Forgotten Realms. I did give them 28 before, but a particular player of mine griped enough that I went to 36. That same player griped about other things. And finally, that player griped enough about how I handled combat (straight out of the book) that he left my game. He's an old buddy of mine, and so I was somewhat hurt when he left. But, I think the game will go better.
I had the same group for Shadowrun, and they also ran all over everything in Shadowrun. It seems that everyone had much more fun in that group before they knew the rules, they roleplayed a lot more, and everything went well. Later, the minmaxing started happening. I can respect minmaxing, as long as it doesn't seem that I throw a 2 round challenge at the party, and can never exceed that.
I am weak at roleplaying as a GM. I know that about myself. I find most roleplaying happens at the beck and call of the player. So, if you find yourself weak at roleplaying, you might have to find a party which will help you achieve that. This might not be the party. My best roleplaying-as-the-GM came from a smaller party, who were close friends of mine, and who respected my goal. (2 people, happened to be husband and wife.)
If you just want to increase the challenge, you might just have to drop the module and start running through a harder module. When my party ROLLED their stats, I realized that they were effectively a challenge rating above where they should be. I started tossing higher levelled monsters at them. They beat 2, and lost to 1. I would have had a TPK, but I had the enemy mage toss them into slavery. The very next module, some poor decisions on their part resulted in a TPK with an equal level encounter. So, there's no telling how the power gaming aspect of things work. (And they were a 54 point rolled party. I gave them a once in a lifetime deal: Everyone can roll, ONE TIME ONLY, but everyone has to use the same person's rolls. A party member rolled two 18s and a 17. I was mildly astounded and peeved.)
Oh my. Sabby, you're like Kestrel's twin, with the exact same experiences (Shadowrun and funky 54-point chargen method included), except that you live in Detroit!
More on this after Thursday, when we RttToEE. To be fair to the blatant powergamer, Kestrel talked to him and he admitted that the problem character was very one-dimensional and unlikely to see play outside of this module. The other PC was fine with downsizing himself.
More on this after Thursday, when we RttToEE. To be fair to the blatant powergamer, Kestrel talked to him and he admitted that the problem character was very one-dimensional and unlikely to see play outside of this module. The other PC was fine with downsizing himself.
Its funny you mention SR. Back in the day, when I was very throughly a power gamer, I used to read some SR boards. This was posted by someone there, and I saved it on my computer. It is a few years old, but I still read it every now and then to remind myself of what it says. This is about Shadowrun obviously, but I think it pertains to any RPG out there. Here it is:
I am not saying it will instigate the same reaction in your players that it did in me, but I thought it was pertient to the topic. I hope it helps someone.
I am not saying it will instigate the same reaction in your players that it did in me, but I thought it was pertient to the topic. I hope it helps someone.
buzzard
First Post
Re: Power-gaming. I feel your pain.
If I were in your campaign I would be glad to have the character die as an excuse to leave your table. Yank the choke collar? Maybe your players are all dogs in your eyes, and maybe they even accept it. I wouldn't put up with that sort of rubbish through a full session most likely. DMs like you are a good reason to find other games.
Buzzard
Glamdring said:
If I were in your campaign I would be glad to have the character die as an excuse to leave your table. Yank the choke collar? Maybe your players are all dogs in your eyes, and maybe they even accept it. I wouldn't put up with that sort of rubbish through a full session most likely. DMs like you are a good reason to find other games.
Buzzard
Re: Re: Power-gaming. I feel your pain.
You misunderstand me completely, as is typically the case. I use the term "choke collar" as an attempt at humor, and a few folks got it. My players are dear friends of mine, and I don't treat them like dogs in any sense of the word. They're heroes, and they behave as such because of my previous "lessons."
buzzard said:
You misunderstand me completely, as is typically the case. I use the term "choke collar" as an attempt at humor, and a few folks got it. My players are dear friends of mine, and I don't treat them like dogs in any sense of the word. They're heroes, and they behave as such because of my previous "lessons."
Wolfen Priest
First Post
Glamdring said:
Uhm, I really don't see what there is to be proud of here. I think the general way to play is to make the game social, so that everyone is having fun.
It doesn't sound like that happened that time.
I've had way too many encounters with DM's who love to control the players (and the whole game), either by killing them for 'acting out' or through plot-railroading. Both types of games really suck, IMHO. It's like being back in grammer school.
Frankly, I really don't see a big problem with attacking a mother bear. It's fantasy, not like Greenpeace is going to jump out and have you arrested! It's an animal. Killing animals is morally OK, which is why McDonald's stays in business.
My guess is that the other players slinked away, unwilling to help the other two, because they wanted to be on the DM's side. The fact is, the DM shouldn't be on a side! If all the players had fought the bear(s), they probably would've won.
I had my DM 'punish' me in such a way when my character attacked two griffons once. Apparently the DM thought they were Lawful Good, but he didn't bother to tell me that!
