How do I turn Powergamers into Roleplayers?

[sbwoodside]

This is by far the best thread I've ever read. Some of the posts have been truly insipiring. Thanks everyone!

Remember PSYCH 101 -- you can use positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement, but both together are best.

But still, I like Glamdrings example, because he showed how to give the players their right to make their own decisions. His reaction seemed very appropriate to me.

Well, I use exposition to show my players what I want them to do. I show them how different approaches work, but they still get to do what they want. Still, I'll create a scenario where roleplaying will work *better* than killing. And if they kill anyway, then I throw in a friendly NPC to say, "you doofus, why did you do that?" because the dead monster had the Big Bad Secret and now they have to go to the Mountain Of Doom instead to get the Secret. But if they don't kill the monster, they can easily convince it to give them the Big Bad Secret for free. So, positive reinforcement and negative.

Simon

http://www.simonwoodside.com/dnd/

 

[sbwoodside]

EDIT: Double post deleted.

 

[Geoff Watson]

Yeah yeah yeah. I know what I posted might seem like I was being a jerk.
Definately.

I didn't kill anyone for followin a plot I created.

Why include the dwarven tomb if you didn't want them investigating it? Maybe the players thought 'Glamdring has put effort into making up this tomb, we'll better explore it.'

Further, I have absolutely no problem allowing my gamers to go off track.
The original post seemed the exact opposite.

However, when all they want is to recover their beloved magical items, they're showing me that they've lost focus.

Why wouldn't they want them back? Seriously, if they had their items stolen, they would try to recover them.

Geoff.

 

[Nathal]

Those who say a module is worthless to them unless you use it as written is quite brain-dead as a DM, and in my opinion has no concept of what a module is REALLY used for - as a source of ideas.

And as such, most are written badly. Modules should present their information in chapters that are easily used by a GM running on the fly. If buying a module means one has to re-write the damn thing to fit, then it should be approached by the authors more as a sourcebook and less of an "adventure story". Dungeon Crawls are perhaps the closest thing to ideal in that regard, as they are keyed to specific locations on a map, and of course random encounters are fun, which fits the game well. But as soon as "plot" is introduced, the whole thing goes down the tubes! "Plot" is created by the actions of the players in *reaction* to the circumstances, not so much pretermined in a fixed sequence. I like Robin Laws' advice concerning set-pieces... matrix-style adventures...

I would like to see modules that present their information in chapters that are easy to use when quick information is needed.

LIke

Chapter 1: Plot hooks. Set-pieces. Background events.
Chapter 2: Major and minor NPCS (keyed to plot elements in chapter 1)
Chapter 3: Creatures and encounters
Chapter 4: Treasures and rewards (keyed to maps and plot elements)
Chapter 5: Maps, random names for common NPCS, and other on the fly material.

And the last chapter would provide resolutions, giving as many outcomes as can be thought of by the author.

Any thoughts on this set-up?

 

[Ranes]

Reading Glamdring's posts is what has prompted me to add my two penn'th. Before I go on, Glamdring, I'm not trying to find fault with your posts; I think I know where you're coming from, especially after your qualifying post.

So, my point, finally, is about plots in campaigns. In my very humble opinion, a plot is a bad thing, beyond a certain point, otherwise known as a hook. Please, allow me to explain this opinion.

If you ever read or listen to an interview with an author, when he (male pronouns for brevity) is asked about the process of writing, how difficult it is, what it does for him and so on, he will almost always say that it becomes exciting when the story feels as though it's writing itself, when characters start to say and do things he hadn't conceived when he sat down to write. This is the process of writing coming alive and it is what differentiates a good read from a printed cure for insomnia.

A good game, for me, whether its core is a module or something brewed up by the DM, has this quality to it.

Off topic, moi? Sorry.

Ranes

 

[Jerrid Al-Kundo]

Any thoughts on this set-up?

I like it.

I completely agree that a module/adventure that requires an overhaul to be useful isn't a good module. To date, the best adventures I've seen to date are the Desert of Desolation Series (which was clearly perfect for expansion in every conceivable direction) and the Underdark Box Set (which stated directly that it was a long-term campaign adventure and that the encounters/adventures/hooks within should be divided by other elements of the DM's devising).

The Al'Qadim adventures (Ruined Kingdoms, A Dozen and One Adventures, etc.) also had this quality. Great stuff.

 

[thalmin]

How do you turn Powergamers into Roleplayers? I'm surprised no one brought up the obvious answer. Polymorph Other should do the tri....(sorry, it's late)

 

[clark411]

dunno if this has been mentioned, and apologies if it has and I missed it but here's a possible helper-

Have your characters describe the actions of their character after they perform them each turn. Let them be as flamboyant or simple as they want- if they love being bad ass they'll present themselves as such.

Before you know it, they'll start presenting themselves in other ways that extend beyond combat.. have them do it for skill checks

With any luck, they'll also begin to describe their failures, and how they interact with each other in greater detail. When that happens, congrats- roleplayers.

 

[Glamdring]

Why wouldn't they want them back? Seriously, if they had their items stolen, they would try to recover them.

Geoff.

Yeah, I can understand that. Further, I can understand how "some" players might think to honor their DM by exploring every map and dungeon they painstakingly draw up. My players aren't like that. I have plenty of maps, monsters, secret areas, and hidden treasure hordes that they've casually bypassed without ever knowing what they've left behind.

I'll provide another example of the "lessons" I provide for less-than-stellar players:

Low level group. Beginning of the Night Below saga. 2E. They're exploring the ruins of Castle Grimstead found NW of Shadowdale. A fallen tower is discovered, and the group explores inside. Within is a ferocious brown bear, bristling and growling, ready to charge. The party ranger notices two sets of eyes behind the bear (who was female): the bear's cubs. The wiser members of the group back off, while the human psionist and the dwarven fighter move in, ready to slay this foolish bear for ever thinking to challange them. They both look at each other and say, "Let's kill it." I silently sigh and say to myself, "I knew they'd do that. Fools." Battle begins. The bear is much stronger than a pair of 1st-2nd level PCs, and when the psionist decided to lasso the creature, he was killed almost immediately. The rest of the party stood by and watched, partly because they didn't want to die, partly because they knew it was wrong to attack a female bear defending her cubs, and partly because it was amusing watching the psionist and dwarf die foolish deaths. That they did. By the end of the encounter, the psionist was so angry at me that he crumpled up his character sheet and threw it away, called me a prick, and stormed out of the room. The dwarf didn't have much to say. He didn't really seem to care about the game in the first place. My point is this:

The psionist (who was the original DM for this group of players until I showed up) was a power-gamer. He ran his games that way. Before I showed up, the group he was running was ran-sacking entire cities, raping women, slaying kings, and NOT playing the game properly. I saw what was going on when I sat in with them, and I was chuckling inwardly. The dwarf was the same way. "Let's kill it" is not the way to role-play. As for the rest of the party, this scenario was a lesson in how I run my games. Yeah, I probably should have passed a note to the ranger and the paladin hinting that they should probably stop those two before they get themselves killed, but I didn't want to do that. I knew that by placing an innocent female bear protecting her cubs in that tower would have caused an issue. "Aaaargh, let's kill anything that dares to threaten us! Let's kill anything that moves!!" Fools. This test is an easy way to weed out those who don't really know what D&D is all about. Yikes, I'll probably get scolded for that one.

 

[Jerrid Al-Kundo]

...I'll provide another example of the "lessons" I provide for less-than-stellar players...

ROFL!!!