how do new scores affect hp, after polymorphing?

[chonjurer]

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=104468

(although the """Sage""" has made a less-than stellar demonstration of rules knowledge here, especially with his explicit neglect of Alter Self inheritance)

 

[Li Shenron]

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=104468

(although the """Sage""" has made a less-than stellar demonstration of rules knowledge here, especially with his explicit neglect of Alter Self inheritance)

Yes, I wouldn't count too much on this "sage advice", even if it agrees with me...

 

[FrankTrollman]

What's the problem there? Any Con changes that do not result from Polymorph do change hit points accordingly (+4 Con = +2x level hit points).

That's not possible.

+4 con does not, in fact, equal +2 hit points per level.

Look it up - Constitution Modifiers are added whole to each hit die. That means that adding 4 Constitution replaces your entire Con Modifier with a larger one. Not +2, just the one as defined on the chart on page 8 of the Player's Handbook (which would normally be 2 higher).

So if you didn't change Hit Points from your Con jumping to 17 when you Polymorphed, and you put on a Periapt of Health +2, your hit points would be set to the modifier of your new Constitution of 19. You would replace yor old hit point modifier with your new one of +4 per hit die.

Which is exactly how many hit points you'd have if you did change hit points when you polymorphed. That's how Constitution modifiers actually work in D&D. The rules deal only in replacing modifiers - not in collecting delta values together.

So of course you change hit points when you polymorph - it is actually impossible by the rules to enforce anything else.

-Frank

 

[Caliban]

That's not possible.

+4 con does not, in fact, equal +2 hit points per level.

Look it up - Constitution Modifiers are added whole to each hit die. That means that adding 4 Constitution replaces your entire Con Modifier with a larger one. Not +2, just the one as defined on the chart on page 8 of the Player's Handbook (which would normally be 2 higher).

So if you didn't change Hit Points from your Con jumping to 17 when you Polymorphed, and you put on a Periapt of Health +2, your hit points would be set to the modifier of your new Constitution of 19. You would replace yor old hit point modifier with your new one of +4 per hit die.

Which is exactly how many hit points you'd have if you did change hit points when you polymorphed. That's how Constitution modifiers actually work in D&D. The rules deal only in replacing modifiers - not in collecting delta values together.

So of course you change hit points when you polymorph - it is actually impossible by the rules to enforce anything else.

-Frank

Take a look at the description of Rage in the barbarian class on page 25 of the PHB. It talks about a +4 con giving +2 hp/level.

What you are talking about is a lot of extra work for the same thing, and doesn't seem to have any real point.

 

[Thanee]

We had that discussion already, Frank.

Every quote in the book speaks of the hit points being altered according to the difference of Con. Nowhere is that statement of yours, that Con bonuses are always applied to the base hit die of a creature.

Bye
Thanee

 

[FrankTrollman]

We had that discussion already, Frank.

Every quote in the book speaks of the hit points being altered according to the difference of Con. Nowhere is that statement of yours, that Con bonuses are always applied to the base hit die of a creature.

Bye
Thanee

Yes it is. It's the desription of Constitution and attribute bonuses as well as the description of bonuses and stacking. Pages 6 and 8 of the PHB as well as the DMG's detailing of bonus types and stacking.

Gaining "+1 Hit Point a level" wouldn't even stack with the 2 extra hit points per level you already have - because it's a "Constitution Bonus" and like bonuses don't stack. Now, gaining 2 hit points a level from getting 4 points of Constitution gain is exactly the same as what the rules actually instruct you to do, if and only if you never change Constitution without altering hit points.

As soon as you change Constitution without changing hit points, even once, you'd have to go back and look at the chart every time you changed Constitution again.

So in short, you are completely wrong, and don't have a leg to stand on. No number of smiley faces will allow you to be correct on this.

-Frank

 

[Voadam]

for reference alter self

Alter Self
Transmutation
Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 10 min./level (D)
You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself.
You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).
You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.
If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components.
You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.
You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth.
You do not gain any supernatural special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities of the new form. Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form. You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype.
You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.
When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When you revert to your true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items you wore in the assumed form and can’t wear in your normal form fall off and land at your feet; any that you could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms at the time of reversion are still held in the same way. Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form.

 

[Voadam]

For reference Polymorph

Polymorph
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Willing living creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.
Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal the subject further). If slain, the subject reverts to its original form, though it remains dead.
The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.
Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to being polymorphed, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard action.
Material Component: An empty cocoon.

 

[Voadam]

I interpret the alter self "keep your own hit points" to mean you would not pick up monstrous hit dice if you took on, say, a gnoll form.

It makes sense that gaining Con you gain hit points as in barbarians rage. They would then go away again after the polymorph. It wouldn't be unreasonable to make polymorph not affect your hit points, (it would be simple for ease of bookkeeping) but I would want more of a clear indication that you do not gain the hit point modifier from your increased con.

 

[FrankTrollman]

And of course, if hit points actually worked on the delta system that many people have simplified them to - we'd have recreational blood drain.

Consider: the minimum number of hit points you can get for going up a level is 1. If you actually gained 1 hit point every time you gained 2 points of Constitution, people should stab themselves with stirges just before gaining levels.

If a Wizard with a Constitution of 10 gains a level - he gets a d4 hit points. If he dropped his Constitution to 1 via blood drain or poison - he'd gain 1 hit point. If he then got Lesser Restoration cast on him a couple of times - raising his Con back to 10 - he'd have gone from a -5 modiifer to a +0. That's a delta of +5.

Are you really going to tell me that this Wizard with no Con Modifier can gain 6 hit points per level by reducing his Constitution?

Fortunately, the rules don't actually work like that. Behind the scenes, Constitution Modifier is simply being replaced. Doing the delta thing is only a timesaver to be used when it wouldn't make any difference. Similar to how when someone casts Greater Magic Weapon on your magic sword you probably just apply a temporary modifier to your already calculated attack and damage rolls - rather than erasing your original magical sword modifier and replacing it with a larger one.

In D&D rules you always replace bonuses. In order to speed up game play, we often just add the difference in modifiers. However, if it ever makes any difference - we have to go back to the rules and replace modifiers with the newer values. Otherwise we would get wizards poisoning themselves for extra hit points.

-Frank