How do Rogues and Rangers hide during combat?

[Pielorinho]

Now proceed to the sections of the PHB that covers Movement and AoO. There are two types of movement that don't draw AoOs: 1) Non-running, no-other-action movement and 2) 5-foot steps. Neither of those draw AoOs.

This isn't quite right. YOu can move up to a double-move, and if you don't do anything else in your action, the space you start in is not considered threatened. If you move through one or more threatened spaces (instead of moving out of the first threatened space), you'll still draw an AoO for moving out of the other threatened spaces.

So this is still an issue after all.

Daniel

 

[Cygnus]

This isn't quite right. YOu can move up to a double-move, and if you don't do anything else in your action, the space you start in is not considered threatened. If you move through one or more threatened spaces (instead of moving out of the first threatened space), you'll still draw an AoO for moving out of the other threatened spaces.

So this is still an issue after all.

Daniel

Nope.
The rogue could move diagonally to, stop, then next round diag. out. But even if there is not room to achieve a diag. then the rogue can just move in 5' steps.

But all of this is just trying to use the "letter of the law" to convince people of what should be common sense. If you don't know that something is there, how can you opportunistically attack it? Nowhere do the books say that you get to attack anything without knowing that it is there. They just state that if you make the appropriate spot/listen checks, then you are able to react to it. Or, are you trying to tell me that, later, while walking down the street, you will just bend over, move the offending leaf, and pickup the 100 dollar bill? I don't think so, the examples given in the hiding/sneak attack don't mention what to do if the target has a reach weapon. Does this then mean that he gets an AoO on a rogue that is about to SA? Again, I don't think so. But, DM how you will, and enjoy the 100 bucks.

Edit: typo

 

[Hypersmurf]

The rogue could move diagonally too, stop, then next round diag. out. But even if there is not room to achieve a diag. then the rogue can just move in 5' steps.

Well, sure, but he can do that even if he isn't invisible.

Nowhere do the books say that you get to attack anything without knowing that it is there.

There are clear mechanics given for attacking an invisible creature you haven't pinpointed.

Most of the people on the "You get an AoO" side of the discussion are assuming that the guard is aware there is a hidden rogue out there somewhere. He just doesn't have him pinpointed.

Hence the "pick a square and roll a miss chance" mechanic.

I don't think so, the examples given in the hiding/sneak attack don't mention what to do if the target has a reach weapon. Does this then mean that he gets an AoO on a rogue that is about to SA? Again, I don't think so.

The AoO for movement is one of the primary benefits of using a reach weapon.

If the guard has no reason to suspect there is anyone out there, no problem. But if he knows there's a rogue out there who might be trying to sneak up on him, the rogue's already blown his best chance.

-Hyp.

 

[Cygnus]

I don't think so, there would have been no point in detailing how to use bluff such that you can hide while under observation.

R: I distract the guard by insinuating that there is something behind him and then I will hide.

DM: Ok, roll. (checks dice) You suspect that your plan has worked (and, in fact, has)

R: I step back out of range.

DM: But he has a reach weapon and takes an AoO.

Yup that makes the bluff technique so much wasted ink.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Yup that makes the bluff technique so much wasted ink.

Only if you're silly enough to hide in a threatened area...

-Hyp.

 

[dkilgo]

Spot checks don't indicate any sort of facing. To the contrary, if you can spot anything in any direction, you can't possibly have any sort of facing. Spells like shield and detect * make you believe in facing.

I am not saying that spot checks indicate which direction a character is facing. What I am trying to say is how can a rogue, for instance, make a bluff check against a character if afore mentioned character is not certain he/she even sees the rogue? That is what the first spot check is for. To see if the rogue is in fact there, and is able to be noticed.

I was not trying to dictate that spot checks had anything to do with facing. I was saying that the spot check would simulate the facing for just that instance. Because if the DM rolls a spot check to see if the character even notices the rogue, and fails, then the DM could say that the character had his back turned to the rogue at that instance. Not the entire round, but in that split second of an instance.

I, personally, like the no facing rule of the game. It adds something to the abstractness of the combat system that enables my imagination to work at its best. But, in an instance like this you have to make slight alterations to keep to some sort of solidity in a universe. Human errorr is natural, or Humanoid error if that is the way you want to look at it, and happens constantly. It is very possible that the particular character that attempts that spot check and fails has done something to avert his/her attention. Or, possibly someone/thing else drew the character's attention elsewhere.

I believe that there has to be something there that allows for human, humanoid, error. That is all. Sorry for the length. I will try to keep it short next time. Thanks for your time.

 

[Lela]

I am not saying that spot checks indicate which direction a character is facing. What I am trying to say is how can a rogue, for instance, make a bluff check against a character if afore mentioned character is not certain he/she even sees the rogue? That is what the first spot check is for. To see if the rogue is in

I believe that there has to be something there that allows for human, humanoid, error. That is all. Sorry for the length. I will try to keep it short next time. Thanks for your time.

I would think that Humanoid error would be very low in this case. DC 5 or 10 perhaps. Unless we're talking wooded area or dark night or something like that. But if it's just the Rogue sneaking into a corner of random dungen #23 then I think it wouldn't be that hard.

 

[dkilgo]

Please don't think that I am, in anyway, trying to say that this would be difficult. I would let the situational modifiers set the DC for the spot check; ie poor lighting, fog, acid rain, or whatever. But, it would not be beyond what the rules already set in motion as far as any situational modifier would go.

 

[LokiDR]

dkilgo, you mentioned facing, so I made the obligitory comment. I don't even think of facing for that split second, because I try to ignore facing entirely, so I can imagine any sort of reasoning appropriate, i.e. "his eyes were elsewhere". Spells like shield strech this perception.

In any case, if you bluff a person who is casually observing you, you can make a hide check, opposed by their spot check. Regardless of distance, 5 feet or 500. If they are not observing you, you don't have to worry about the bluff check.

I don't know what you refering to with the DCs you mentioned. Spot vs Hide, situational modifiers apply, as published.

 

[Pielorinho]

Nope.
The rogue could move diagonally to, stop, then next round diag. out. But even if there is not room to achieve a diag. then the rogue can just move in 5' steps.

Eh? I don't think this relates to my point, which was that a double-move doesn't negate AoOs in general: it merely makes the square you start in not be threatened. Reread my post above.

At any rate, I think you and I agree on this basic situation: you cannot use an AoO unless you're aware that some triggering event is happening. An AoO represents a deliberate, extra attack against a square, not just the results of your constant flailing about you -- otherwise, you wouldn't be limited to one AoO per round. And if you're not aware that somebody is in a particular square, it's highly unlikely that you'll be aware that they're drawing an AoO.

(there may be rare exceptions. An invisible mage is casting a spell but has cast ventriloquism first; you hear the spell being cast, and attack the square you guess the mage is in, rather than the one you hear the sound coming from. In this case, you'd get an AoO against a character you cannot sense, but I can't think of too many other examples).

Daniel