How do rogues survive?

[Gyoza Dog]

I'm about to try playing a rogue for the first time since 3E came out and I'm having real trouble coming up with anything combat effective.

Unless you really focus on Con or Dex, Rogues combine low hit points with relatively low armour class. And a fighting style that is at its best when right amidst your foes (flanking). The number of times I've seen rogues run in take their sneak attack and then get rended or dogpiled before their next round...

From observing other people play them there only seem to be two effective combat strategies.

1. Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack.
Get into the flank take a single attack then get straight out of there.

2. Impoved Initiative, Quickdraw, Point blank shot, Rapid Shot
Catch them flatfooted for massive damage then snipe ineffectually for the rest of the combat.

Am I missing something. Are there other valid strategies without having to have 18s in a couple of stats?

 

[johnsemlak]

Remember to concentrate on skills. Rogues have a lot of non-combat value. High intelligence is a good thing.

Of course Rogues are weaker in melee combat than fighters. That's the point really.

 

[Sanackranib]

rogues

a better question is how do they not? with the most skills and a high dex and Int you have many options. go in with 2 weapons and do 2 sneak attacks. use a reach weapon or a missile weapon
the best stragity is to let others do the fighting or multiclass a few levels as ranger, fighter or wizard. USE YOUR SKILLS thats your strong suit.

 

[Mercule]

Well, I've been playing a rogue since 2nd level and haven't had a problem. In fact, I was the primary combatant at low level.

My stats are: S 16, D14, C 12 (14 as of 8th level), I 12, W 10, Ch 14.

The skills I took are the acrobatic and stealth sort (I took the acrobat PrC ASAP) and Diplomacy, Sense Motive, and Knowledge (History). [Background is the second son of a wealthy merchant. Nothing really to do and he's not going to inherit, so he learns a bit about negatiating, but really considers himself just an athlete.]

His feats are (in order taken): Run, Dash, Acrobatic, Dodge.

He took a brief foray into Wizard at 4th level, returning to Rogue at 5th and Thief-Acrobat at 6th-8th. Until about 5th level, he was _the_ primary combatant. Since then he usually gets thrown into every combat.

He's a major risk-taker and often sets himself up as a target to bail others out. Still, he's probably the most likely to survive -- as the current situation the party is in indicates, as he is the _only_ person standing besides the Charmed fighter and any other survivors owe their life to him.

I know that at least one other PC considers it more important to have my Acrobat in play during a fight than the Barbarian and his flaming axe.

Considering that we're going through RtToEE, I consider his continued survival to be a pretty good indicator that Rogues are reasonably hardy. Especially in light of what could be considered some _very_ non-optimal choices in character development.

So, the answer to "How do roques survive?" is "Quite nicely, provided they have half a brain."

Heck, my DM is constantly talking about Rogues being overpowered. I have to constantly fight off house rules that deminish my effectiveness.

 

[johnsemlak]

Well said Sanackranib

Rogues should choose their attacks wisely. Rogues can be deadly if used carefully.

Re Armor class, IME a rogue with a high Dex (which you would expect) has a good AC compared with other party members. My current character, a Fighter, has an AC of 16 (Scale + Shield, which is all he could afford initially). A rogue with Leather and a Good Dex bonus can have an AC of 15 easily.

 

[Gyoza Dog]

Re: rogues

a better question is how do they not? with the most skills and a high dex and Int you have many options. go in with 2 weapons and do 2 sneak attacks. use a reach weapon or a missile weapon
the best stragity is to let others do the fighting or multiclass a few levels as ranger, fighter or wizard. USE YOUR SKILLS thats your strong suit.

Yes by all means do a full attack action with your 2 weapons next to the critter and maybe survive to the next round if you have that very very high Dex to give you a good armour class and a big Con to soak up the inevitable blows. As I said I was hoping for strategies that didn't require 18s.

Wouldn't a reach weapon require a feat or a multiclass level? Obviously it is another strategy though.

Yes I want to play a rogue because of the skills for the noncombat situations. But I would like to contribute and survive combat as well. Really apart from tumble what skills would be used regularly in combat?

 

[Mercule]

Re: Re: rogues

Yes I want to play a rogue because of the skills for the noncombat situations. But I would like to contribute and survive combat as well. Really apart from tumble what skills would be used regularly in combat?

Typically, Hide/Move Silent are used getting into combat. In some special situations, I've used both Balance and Swim.

My wife's Fighter/Rogue (swashbuckler) uses Bluff a fair amount to feint.

 

[green slime]

Don't know about your games but the rogue IMC is getting on my nerves with his rooftop jaunts, sniping at opponents, and then rushing in to deal humungous damage with a flanking attack.

 

[Shadowdancer]

Your Rogue should be using Bluff to set up opponets for extra Sneak Attack damage. If the monsters you encounter are the proper CR for the level of your Rogue, you should have little trouble dispatching them faster than they can kill you if you are getting your extra Sneak Attack damage.

And remember -- Sneak Attack can be used with ranged weapons from up to 30 feet away. Which means you can stay out of their reach and plink away at them. If you only have a high dex, use a bow or crossbow. If you also have decent strength (high enough to get a damage bonus), use a throwing weapon such as a dagger or hand axe.

Quick Draw is a very good feat to have, as it puts you into a Sneak Attack situation at the start of almost every fight.

Tumbling is a good skill to use to get you into a flanking position. Every combat, you should be thinking, "How can I flank this/these opponent(s)? How can I get that extra Sneak Attack damage?"

 

[nsruf]

I have never really seen any problem with the rogue, combat-wise. Anything that can tear a rogue to shreds in 1 turn can do the same for a fighter in 2, and is probably too powerful for the party to handle. Could this be more a problem with your DM's style of play than with the rogue class as such?

Oh, and Expertise is another useful feat for melee combatants who need to boost their AC a little. One way of looking at it is that it allows a rogue to transfer the flanking bonus to AC instead.