How do rogues survive?

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

You don`t need 18s in specific stats - at least not before the use of spells and equipment

A skill that is sometimes overlocked: Use Magic Device. It gives you access to spells, and it is one of the reasons why I recommend against multiclassing with spellcasters - you make the skill useless for many items.
(Oh, and before you multiclass with a spellcaster, check if you can`t spare a feat for "Leadership" and get a caster as companion! )

If you can`t afford a Ring of Blinking, check a Wand of Blinking!(this is considered the ultimate killer tactic of getting sneak attack on every attack - at least, if you happen to be in the right dimension )
Or even use Scrolls of Blink.

Sneaking during combat is difficult, but not impossible, especially at high levels using appropriate equipment (Cloak of Elvenkind/Robe of Blending and so on)

Bluff is useful to get Sneak Attacks at least every other round, combined with some good feats, it can really help you. (Combat Reflexes -> Expert Tactician).

It is possible to use ranged weapons effectively after the 1st regular round using invisibility or blink. (both from allies, wands, scrolls or other items, whatever you can get)
Speaking of Ranged Weapon, consider using Greater Magic Weapon from your allied spellcasters. (Though 50 arrows aìn`t much on a full day)

Teamwork is an important part on your way to success (though it is not always neccessary, some specific rogue concepts can work independendly, as our Swirfneblin Rogue in our high level campaign proved)
You and the fighter have to set up where you can flank your opponents and where the opponent won`t concentrate on fighting you.
(And if the only way to get to this is taking a Weapon Profiency in a Reach Weapon, do it. Better losing a feat than losing your life!)

Many opponents fight the first opponent they reach, and if this is the fighter, that`s great. So consider opening the combat with a few ranged shots (possibly with sneak attack), than let the fighter close into melee range with the target. Wait until the opponent attacks him, and than get into a flanking position.
(If the opponent figures out that you are the real threat - which is not neccesary true - he might switch towards you - but we are speaking of the 2nd or 3rd round of combat here, and chances are high that your opponent is near death anyway...)

If you have trouble with undead and other "immune to criticials and sneak attack", consider using Holy weapons (make your alignment a strength!) or lawful weapons (devils are underused, demons, vampires and drow are prefered opponents in several campaigns). Maybe even a undead bane weapon. (speaking of bane, the Scarab of Golembane is really cheap, isn`t it?)
If you can`t or do not want to use alignment based weapons, energy is the second option (maybe your DM allows even combos like Flaming and Frost).
(A side note here: Often I hear people recommend keen and improved critical for rogues - I don`t know why - most rogues do not gain much of it, because they don`t have high damage bonus that are multiplied with the weapon. Instead it makes them even more relying on targets that are subjects to critical)
If you can`t rely on Greater Magic Weapons, a high "plus" only can do the job - if gives you better hit chances, something a rogue can need.
The Short Sword of Subtility can be your weapon of choice, too. It gives a +4 bonus to attack and damage rolls when sneak attacking.

Mustrum Ridcully

 

[Gyoza Dog]

Could this be more a problem with your DM's style of play than with the rogue class as such?

I think it may be. We face creatures all the time which can kill a non-fighter PC in a single attack sequence. So even with a very high AC eventually my rogue would be paste just by the law of averages if he lets himself stay in melee.

 

[nsruf]

I think it may be. We face creatures all the time which can kill a non-fighter PC in a single attack sequence.

What level do you play - and which threats are you facing? And since you are looking for a survival strategy that does not require "all 18s", how do you determine ability scores?

Maybe the creative people here can help you devise a strategy if you give us some more details.

 

[LostSoul]

T-t-t-t-umble. Max out your Tumble score so you can slip in, flank for an attack or two, then run when you're in danger. You should have something like a +6 to +8 at first level, which is good enough to reliably make that 15 DC.

 

[Steverooo]

Re: Re: rogues

Yes I want to play a rogue because of the skills for the noncombat situations. But I would like to contribute and survive combat as well. Really apart from tumble what skills would be used regularly in combat?

Bluff (for feinting)< Hide, Move Silently.

Hide, Move Silently, Flank, Sneak Attack, Feint (to distract), Hide.

Tumble is also good for getting where you want to go, unharmed. Search, Disable Device and Open Locks you will be expected to do. Pick Pockets is rarely used, unless you want your character to "acquire" stuff by thieving, instead of adventuring.

Missile fire from a distance is also good, especially in conjunction with Slippers of Spiderclimbing.

Masterwork/Magical Studded Leather, or a Mithri/al Chain Shirt, for you. If you multiclass, go Barbarian, Fighter, or Ranger, and use a Buckler. If so, MW/Magic, again.

Mage Armor, Bear's Endurance, and Bull's Strength would be nice.

 

[F5]

I like rogues. One thing that has helped me keep my rogues alive: fight in pairs. The most effective rogue I've played was one of two rogues in the party. We tumble into flanking position, and that's two sneak attacks for the price of one (three, actually...I fought two-weapon). If one of us is in trouble, the other uses Aid Another to help their AC, or bluff to distract while they escape. Initially, I thought having two rogues in the party wouldn't be much fun, but we quickly became partners in crime, and had a blast in and out of combat.

For your campaign, if you're fighting monsters that can take out a character in one round, you really have to go with missile combat. Climb to the top of a building/nearby ledge/whatever is out of reach, and snipe until the bad guy is dead. Take feats that improve your missile weapons (there's lots).

My next thug-ish rogue is going to play with reach weapons and Improved Trip. Probably multiclassed with fighter for the extra feats and combat power. Using a Guisarme, you have a reach weapon you can make trip attacks with. Hold your action, and wait for the enemy to close with you, use your Attack of opportunity to trip him, and the improved trip feat lets you make an immediate free attack, while the other guy is prone, so you should get sneak attack damage. Then you get your held action to attack normally, all before the bad guy has actually closed with you. I don't know how well this will play out, but it should be fun to try.

 

[Storminator]

And a fighting style that is at its best when right amidst your foes (flanking). The number of times I've seen rogues run in take their sneak attack and then get rended or dogpiled before their next round...

Here's the problem. Your rogue should only be next to one foe at a time. It's the fighter that should be in the midst of the foes. The fighter gets in, gets surrounded, and the rogue roams the edges of the combat slaughtering foes left and right.

Then the cleric steps in and heals the fighter, who's been playing damage mop.

Never send the rogue to the middle of the enemy.

PS

 

[Hand of Evil]

Wits, charm and good looks.

Look at their skills and think able how to use them. Rogues are city breed and in most cities you avoid combat (for the most part). If you do get into it is better to be faster than your foes and to have good friends or at least people you can buy! Bluff, bribe, listen, innuendo, intimidate, sense motive, all can help and some can be used in combat (check with your DM) to give an edge, such as intimidate and bluff (role playing helps here).

Okay, use magical device. A gun has been called an equalizer, in D&D this could be one for the rogue.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

It's been my experience that rogues dish out more damage than anyone besides POSSIBLY the main tank. Of course, when you throw undead into the mix, rogues are much less effective.

 

[officeronin]

From observing other people play them there only seem to be two effective combat strategies.

1. Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack.
Get into the flank take a single attack then get straight out of there.

2. Impoved Initiative, Quickdraw, Point blank shot, Rapid Shot
Catch them flatfooted for massive damage then snipe ineffectually for the rest of the combat.

With a sky high dex (can (and should) be done with point method), I go for quicker than the eye ASAP. If I'm playing a race with a DEX bump, I take it at first level. If not, then at 6th. I will also grab combat reflexes and expert tactician, and probably weapon finesse: dagger. By 6th level, every attack is a sneak attack -- if I can't sneak attack (fighting undead or constructs), I tumble to a flank and fight defensively. My d4 dagger won't help much anyway.

If the bad guy has taken 2 or 3 sneak attacks, and is not doing a "finish-me" dance, it's time to demonstrate the wisdom of the light armor speed advantage. You bit more than you could chew.

OfficeRonin