How do you deal with rules laywers??!!

[beldar1215]

I statrted running for a group and have come to find out they are all rules lawyers. I'm a pretty new DM and I'm trying to run by the rules the best I can. I knew it was bad when one of the players argued a rule after I had read it word for word out of the PHB. I was just looking for some advice.

Thanks
Beldar

 

[Umbran]

Keep a baseball bat with you. When someone gets uppity, whack 'em!

Not really. You're probably going to have to learn to strike a balance - allowing players to remind you of the occasional rule, but don't let them argue with you about it.

Let them know ahead of time that lengthy rules-discussions will not be allowed at the table. If they think you messed up, then they may discuss it with you after the session is over.

 

[Mordane76]

Hot tar. Chicken feathers.


Seriously though, it's always a problem when you play with people who either know the rules better than you because they've been playing/running the game longer or think they know the rules better than you. When push comes to shove, you're the DM.

You said you're new at this DMing thing... well, the players know that, too. Apparently, they want to test you (either consciously or unconsciously), to see what they can get away with; don't let them. Remember the only rule of DMing -- YOU HAVE THE FINAL SAY WHEN IT COMES TO INTERPRETATION OF THE RULES.

This is not a ticket to run roughshod over your players, but it is the last word when a rules empasse is reached. So, listen to your players if they have a question, look it up, and tell them your ruling. If they want to argue, then give them a moment to make their case -- if they sway you, then fine. If not, stick to your guns. If they don't like it, tell them they can talk to you about it after the game. Just don't let debate stop play for more than a few minutes, because then the atmosphere is broken.

Part of being a new DM in an experienced group is showing you have the stuff to be the man in charge. You have to show fairness, understanding of the rules, and confidence in your rulings, but a certain finesse in dealing with those times when you end up being "wrong" after the fact.

 

[EarthsShadow]

First, I want to apologize for running a group where each player is a rules lawyer. Talk about a DM's worst nightmare.

Second, you do have some options here. Try talking to them, explain to them that you are new and you are learning as you go. This might work for some but maybe not all, and the ones it doesn't work on (which are the same people that never give any DM's any slack at all) will only make it worse. Talk to them as a group, or one on one.

After talking to them, pick the lawyer you feel most comfortable with (wow, talk about your oxymoron right there) and have that one person your rules sage/lawyer for any rules questions you may have. Basically this person should be used for advice and advice only when you need to make fair decisions based on circumstances. It will be obvious if they try to take advantage of you, so be prepared.

Tell them that even though you are a new DM, you are still in charge and you will be fair, but lay down some ground rules before the next session begins. If something comes up during a game that requires a rule check, say you will read the rule and make the decision, and that decision stands. You could be nice and give them two minutes to state their reasoning, but that's all they get, and to emphasize this buy a stop watch and time them. Then make your decision, stick with it, don't budge and AFTER the game review it and if you ended up making a rather bad decision, apologize and learn and move and don't dwell on it.

If after all this doesn't work, do what the rest of the world does. Shoot all the rules lawyers and follow all guidelines in The Slayers Guide to Rules Lawyers published by Mongoose. That book as some great advice also.

 

[clark411]

I find lawyers to be a good resource when needing info rapido rapido.

Instead of thinking about how to do the grapple, I fire off "Hey Tim, what are the grapple rules?" "Tim, what's the attack bonus of 23 strength with a two handed weapon? Oh and it's dark in here- that an AC bonus, an attack roll penalty, or concealment miss chance?" "Hey, so he's falling about 90 ft, what are those funky tumble rules and subdual stuff?"

and i'll do this for as long as I can get away with it. You'd be absolutely amazed at how rapidly a rules lawyer stops being one and just wants to be another player if you always tap him for his knowledge. They do get sick of it.. it's just a matter of how long it takes to make them snap... erm.. how long you can enjoy their services ^_^

 

[Camarath]

My advice bar Meta-Game discussion wile in game. If they want to talk about the rule with you after the game thats fine. But no rangers taking a 1/2 hour break from a pitched battle to have heat conservation with god about how he should have got a bonus on his spot check because of his high wilderness lore score to spot an assassin in a natural setting that he had yet to even notice after it was pointed out by some one who actually took some ranks in spot.

your player are not playing a video game they are playing a roleplaying game and should remiber to actually roleplay their characters.

 

[Wormwood]

That all depends. If they are good rules lawyers, then they know the rules better than you do. I would consider them a resource, not a problem.

Rules lawyering can be annoying at times, but so is a game where the DM doesn't have a thorough knowledge of the rules.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

Here are some possible solutions, warning, I have inserted a dud suggestion that I think would be disastrous.

- Let them DM for a while. Maybe forever?
- Out read them in the core rules, the only rules that matter.
- Make your decisions and unless a character is killed keep the debate after play.
- Talk about your concerns to them, aloud, beforehand.
- Accept a little humble pie every once in a while.
- Choose who you play with carefully, avoid the temptation to accept a player for "numbers".
- Npc a particularly stubborn player's character until they learn to shut up over nothing.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Well, if they're arguing rules while you're directly quoting them out of the book, it would seem that they don't know what they're talking about. I occasionally have this problem, myself.

I've found that quoting the rules, again, in a loud, firm voice, usually either shames them into silence or causes them to give up in frustration. If they continue arguing, ask how the interpretation they're quoting fits the text you just read. If their explanation is too stretched, feel free to laugh at them.

On the other hand, if your rules-lawyering players tend to be right, listen to them and correct yourself. Nothing is more frustrating than a DM who screws your character because he doesn't understand the rules. Just remember that several sections of rules are listed as guidelines, and specifically subject to the DM's approval-- such as Savage Species ECLs or the costs of new magic items.

 

[Arnwyn]

I've found that quoting the rules, again, in a loud, firm voice, usually either shames them into silence or causes them to give up in frustration. If they continue arguing, ask how the interpretation they're quoting fits the text you just read. If their explanation is too stretched, feel free to laugh at them.

On the other hand, if your rules-lawyering players tend to be right, listen to them and correct yourself. Nothing is more frustrating than a DM who screws your character because he doesn't understand the rules.

This is the *best* advice I've read here and (not surprisingly ) is exactly what I do with my group. It works marvelously. The best part above is where Korimyr suggest that you "ask how the interpretation they're quoting fits the text you just read". I'm a firm believer in putting the ball in the player's court.

To be perfectly honest, I encourage my players to be "PHB rules-lawyers". I hope that they know the PHB inside and out - the more they know, the better they can react to the world around their characters - and that they can always expect consistent results. If they can point out a rule in the PHB that I missed, I *want* them to point it out to me.

Thankfully, because of what's in the PHB and how the d20 rules have been designed, I can't remember the last time there have been any rules disagreements... can't remember at all...