How Do You Get Over All Of The Number Crunching?
- Thread starter Aluvial
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Aluvial
Explorer
Thanks for all of the responses.
I've got a degree in Physics and its not that I can't figure the math, it’s that fact that there is so much rules lawyering to begin with. Ambiguities spring up all over the place and I constantly have to post on various rules forums and wade through 15 to 45 posts of people arguing over how it "should be!" From there I make me decisions.
We use two white boards, is high above the table and the initiative order and enemy AC's go on that board. The other is great. It is 4' X 3' and is has a permanent grey, 1 inch grid on it for miniatures. Every single combat happens on this board.
As for keeping track of spell effects, I do that on the initiative white board. I suppose I could ask the players to do stuff, but they are extremely lazy about having anything to do but look up info on their characters, which is a big job, especially for spell casters. Out of the seven, sometimes eight players, we have one treasure keeper (the thief!), and one official note keeper. The other guys come and play, but we have a very social situation. Lot's of digression on other topics, which is fine for us. We play from 7 to 11, every Wednesday night.
As for air of mystery, I suppose over the years we've done it all. The guys had the original monster books memorized, and only because we had played for so long. I love the fact that I can surprise them with the new books and/or add class levels to a creature. Nothing like a band of kobold monks! So in that vain, it's fresh, but then again not. My players just don't seem attached to the 3rd edition characters. I don't know if it was the switch, but they just don't seem to get into much... If you search the House Rules forum you will see my House Rules (the 1st edition of them anyway, they've changed around recently) and some of my beginning campaign posts for RttToEE adventure.
I've always, always have played in Greyhawk, and use the Planescape as my cosmology. I just don't know what's wrong with this edition. It just seems extremely power based, and if you don't min-max your character to death, with progressively more powerful feat chains, you are an idiot. I can't blame them for doing it, when the monsters are now designed the same way.
I can still run an encounter by the seat of my pants, and can instinctively set a challenge to whatever difficulty I want to. EL, that crap is bogus. CR, that needs a major fix in my opinion. By the way I use a modified Excel Spreadsheet in the Forgotten Realms Style for awarding experience that FastLearner designed. This thing is a godsend and I print a report at the end of each game session for the characters. If you want a copy, email me at aluvial@carolina.rr.com !! Once you learn how to use it, it saves SO MUCH TIME when figuring out XP's for the characters. Also has plenty of room for traps, modifiers, bonuses, etc.
Anyway, I appreciate the advice; I think I just needed to hear that I wasn't alone with my concept of the game as it stands. I'm hopeful that the new revisions clear up some stuff. Honestly, I love the new edition for characters and combat, but something has gotten lost in the translation... Relying on the rules for a group of rules junkies is my main problem, and one that I hope the clarifications coming in July will fix.
Aluvial
I've got a degree in Physics and its not that I can't figure the math, it’s that fact that there is so much rules lawyering to begin with. Ambiguities spring up all over the place and I constantly have to post on various rules forums and wade through 15 to 45 posts of people arguing over how it "should be!" From there I make me decisions.
We use two white boards, is high above the table and the initiative order and enemy AC's go on that board. The other is great. It is 4' X 3' and is has a permanent grey, 1 inch grid on it for miniatures. Every single combat happens on this board.
As for keeping track of spell effects, I do that on the initiative white board. I suppose I could ask the players to do stuff, but they are extremely lazy about having anything to do but look up info on their characters, which is a big job, especially for spell casters. Out of the seven, sometimes eight players, we have one treasure keeper (the thief!), and one official note keeper. The other guys come and play, but we have a very social situation. Lot's of digression on other topics, which is fine for us. We play from 7 to 11, every Wednesday night.
As for air of mystery, I suppose over the years we've done it all. The guys had the original monster books memorized, and only because we had played for so long. I love the fact that I can surprise them with the new books and/or add class levels to a creature. Nothing like a band of kobold monks! So in that vain, it's fresh, but then again not. My players just don't seem attached to the 3rd edition characters. I don't know if it was the switch, but they just don't seem to get into much... If you search the House Rules forum you will see my House Rules (the 1st edition of them anyway, they've changed around recently) and some of my beginning campaign posts for RttToEE adventure.
I've always, always have played in Greyhawk, and use the Planescape as my cosmology. I just don't know what's wrong with this edition. It just seems extremely power based, and if you don't min-max your character to death, with progressively more powerful feat chains, you are an idiot. I can't blame them for doing it, when the monsters are now designed the same way.
I can still run an encounter by the seat of my pants, and can instinctively set a challenge to whatever difficulty I want to. EL, that crap is bogus. CR, that needs a major fix in my opinion. By the way I use a modified Excel Spreadsheet in the Forgotten Realms Style for awarding experience that FastLearner designed. This thing is a godsend and I print a report at the end of each game session for the characters. If you want a copy, email me at aluvial@carolina.rr.com !! Once you learn how to use it, it saves SO MUCH TIME when figuring out XP's for the characters. Also has plenty of room for traps, modifiers, bonuses, etc.
Anyway, I appreciate the advice; I think I just needed to hear that I wasn't alone with my concept of the game as it stands. I'm hopeful that the new revisions clear up some stuff. Honestly, I love the new edition for characters and combat, but something has gotten lost in the translation... Relying on the rules for a group of rules junkies is my main problem, and one that I hope the clarifications coming in July will fix.
Aluvial
Angcuru
First Post
It seems to me that the various additions seem to become more detailed and a bit simpler than their precursors, but ALWAYS add one little problem. For AD&D, it was an overabundance of variables and in general, rules. In 3rd edition, we have problems keeping track of bonuses and the math can get frustrating. I prefer 3rd edition, and I think 4th will be pretty bad-ass when we finally see it.
Let's see...
* If you let a player do less work, rest assured, he **will** do less work. Make 'em keep track of their own darn spell durations.
* First thing we do: Kill all the rules lawyers. I usually let a player get away with something if it gets the game going. Then I add a few more levels to his opponent. (;
* Switch the focus away from killing things. Try creating a city adventure. The party will **always** split up
so give players NPC roles to ham it up with. Be prepared to send in the guards and create a court trial when some PC inevitably thinks he can burn down the thieve's guild.
Cedric.
aka. Washu! ^O^
* If you let a player do less work, rest assured, he **will** do less work. Make 'em keep track of their own darn spell durations.
* First thing we do: Kill all the rules lawyers. I usually let a player get away with something if it gets the game going. Then I add a few more levels to his opponent. (;
* Switch the focus away from killing things. Try creating a city adventure. The party will **always** split up
so give players NPC roles to ham it up with. Be prepared to send in the guards and create a court trial when some PC inevitably thinks he can burn down the thieve's guild.Cedric.
aka. Washu! ^O^
Last edited:
Angcuru
First Post
Aluvial said:
That is VERY true. The addition of feats gave the game a bit more detail and depth (rules-wise), but also pushed the concept of the game that much futher from story and into rules & min/maxing.
In previous editions, you just have your basic attack and damage, armor, and in the case of druids/mages/clerics, spells. Simple, just enough to get you through the only part of the game that SHOULD have rules: combat. You would know everything you needed to know off the top of your head, and combat went by as fast and smoothly as anyone could imagine(if it weren't for THAC0, it would have been perfect.)
Now though, we have all these variables, feats, and other potholes that make every combat different(a plus), but slow it down to the point that most sessions employing combat seem to revolve almost entirely around said combat, since it takes so F*CKING LONG! And besides that, you can't know every little thing about your character off the top of your head(since there's so much), so you end up constantly looking at your char sheet(slowing combat down even more.)
The changes made for 3rd edition allow for more variety, but in return for that we have to sacrifice simplicity. The only near-flawless addition was that of skills. You only need to use them now and then, and with just one or two rolls of a d20 you know wether or not something worked. My group only uses skill checks every now and then, to see if we hear or see something, fall off a cliff, etc. It just works.
Feats add a lot to the game, but at the same time they are like jamming a stick into the gears of the game.
Aluvial said:
Hm. Here may be one of your problems. Why do you feel you "have to" do any of this? Why not just decide for yourself, with what makes sense? It is your game, isn't it?
Not every ambiguity needs a hard-rule resolution, researched and written down and ready to reference. Don't confuse the fact that many of us have a passion for wrangling over details with the game actually needing lots of detailed fiddly-bit rulings. The game runs quite well as written.
A basic rule of house rules: Only make an extra rule or if it makes a notable positive addition to your game. How a bunch of message-board geeks feel it "should be" is nothing in the face of how you and your players want it to be. If you find your game is overburdened with these extra rules, throw them away. Take the 28 pages, burn them, and note how well your game runs anyway
Aluvial
Explorer
Umbran said:
Hm. Here may be one of your problems. Why do you feel you "have to" do any of this? Why not just decide for yourself, with what makes sense? It is your game, isn't it?
Not every ambiguity needs a hard-rule resolution, researched and written down and ready to reference. Don't confuse the fact that many of us have a passion for wrangling over details with the game actually needing lots of detailed fiddly-bit rulings. The game runs quite well as written.
A basic rule of house rules: Only make an extra rule or if it makes a notable positive addition to your game. How a bunch of message-board geeks feel it "should be" is nothing in the face of how you and your players want it to be. If you find your game is overburdened with these extra rules, throw them away. Take the 28 pages, burn them, and note how well your game runs anyway
Good advice on the rules folder. It actually hurts trying to look up the rule decisions I made already, but I've strived for at least some consistency. The big problem is I get a lot of questions about how this should work, or shouldn't work, and the books are supposed to at least steer you in the right direction... problem is, that they don't all of the time. As for making up stuff on the fly, I do, but it stinks of conflict between me and players and that is a dangerous thing.
I think they try to take every advantage the rules allow and who can blame them! I would do the same thing. Spells are always going to be used in new and fascinating ways, you have to roll with the punches (and throw in some licks of your own). I don't have a problem with the players being inventive, it just that the rules are SO specific about certain things and so vague about others.
Ramble on....
Take scribing scrolls. How many scrolls can you create a day? One, it says so in the rules. How many spells can you put on a scroll in one day... ??? It doesn't say. It tells you everything you need to know on how to make the rolls, checks, cost, and xp's needed, but it doesn't say exactly how many you can do. The rule is vague. At first I ruled that you could only do one, and that the word "scroll" was defined as: One spell on a piece of parchment. Then in the module I ran, I gave out a pre-made piece of treasure. A scroll with two spells on it. The spell casters about had a fit in their chairs!! A scroll with TWO spells on it. It's a miracle! Well since that time (and as they increase in level, therefore being able to do more stuff) they want to make scrolls with more than one spell on them. Why not, I reasoned. I change the rule to you can put up to 1,000 gold pieces worth of spells on a scroll in one day. What happens? The cleric makes a scroll with 40 cure light wounds on it. You do the math. I missed the small bit in the rules mentioned in the wrong spot that you needed the spell memorized to put it into the item. I made a mistake... When I corrected it, I had my next house rule; you can only put as many spells on a scroll as the caster's highest spell level available to him. So in essence, 9 spells on a scroll is the highest you would ever be able to achieve (unless you play with FR 10th level spell bull-crap). Or Epic Level crap. Or Deities Level crap. Anyway, the point was that in one week I've got three new house rules for something that should have been spotted if the designers actually played the game and REALLY cared about what they were releasing. At least some web stuff to correct the simple mistakes. Try sending a request to Wizards for an OFFICIAL rules clarification. They are so scared of the tidal-wave of backlash they get over every decision that they don't even answer most of the time. I think there is a phone number to call. I haven't tried that yet...
So this brings me to my conclusion about why the game has flaws now. It just came to me. The guys who designed the game were so afraid of the backlash that they would receive from the fans that they attempted to create a definite rule for every obvious circumstance. Everything else is left with vague interpretations by the teaming masses. I honestly think that they've done a great job and I appreciate the efforts, without them, I would have never of had the imagination (or the sheer willpower to take on the endeavor) to make up such a complicated game. Go take a look on the face of newcomer to the game. Better yet, try to explain it to one of your 'cool' co-workers some time. Just try and explain what the game is to a girl. They will all look at you, and hopefully you picked a good friend to try with, and say, "Looks pretty complicated." I don't think real life gets as complicated as this game does now. It used to be that I made up the rules, and no one argued BECAUSE there wasn't a rule to look up in the PH that contradicted the ruling. So this takes me right back to the beginning, there are a LOT of rules in this game. A LOT. And the designers have done a hell of a job making it balanced. It kills me when I hear someone complain about how they are going to redesign haste or harm... or polymorph. That type of person is just the creature that the designers in their almost infinite wisdom missed. That is the guy who uses the depth of the rules to support any type of nonsense that he is trying to attempt, and the big problem is, that you shouldn't do anything but smile because those were the rules that you thought would leave the rules problems behind.
Rambling off....
Thanks again for the help and the advice. I really appreciate your efforts here. I need a 12 step DM support group... I really do...
Aluvial
Aluvial
Explorer
Oh, I meant to do this to prove a point... there are 20-something pages of discussions just like this one here... This is the current selection of rules items at this moment... In 48 hours, my posts will be decided upon and move back to page three...
Here are today's rules questions.... Take a second to read the titles....
Maybe you guys get my point here... I know it was childish, but this game sparks these types of questions every single day. Frankly I think it's amazing....
Aluvial
Here are today's rules questions.... Take a second to read the titles....
Maybe you guys get my point here... I know it was childish, but this game sparks these types of questions every single day. Frankly I think it's amazing....
Aluvial
Darrin Drader
Explorer
First of all, notecards are your friend, as has been pointed out already. If every player jots down their feats, along with any applicable rulings on a note card, it is referenced easily during play and leads to less page flipping during the game.
Second, the item creation rules are great if you have a lot of time to spend. Personally I don't worry about getting the exact price on things according to the letter of the rules. A large number of prices in the DMG and other "official" sources are wrong anyway. Just wing it. Guesstimeate the numbers and make sure that the prices you arrive at are close to comparable items. It saves a lot of time and really doesn't detract from the game at all. I would argue that the rules for determining prices are geared more towards professional designers anyway.
Third, don't allow every prestige class. In fact, you should keep the core classes, and then decide which PRC's to allow in your campaign as opposed to deciding which ones not to allow in your campaign. There are so many classes with funky class abilities that if every player took a PRC, you could spend the entire game session just figuring out abilities for a single combat.
Fourth, get very familliar with the table 8-1, P. 177 in the DMG. If you know that page, your stacking problems will be over.
And finally, don't get hung up on attacks of opportunity. They seem a lot more complicated than they really need to be. Basically if you leave a threatenned square or pass through a threatenned square, then you provoke an attack of opportunity.
Keep it simple and the game will flow much more easily for you.
Second, the item creation rules are great if you have a lot of time to spend. Personally I don't worry about getting the exact price on things according to the letter of the rules. A large number of prices in the DMG and other "official" sources are wrong anyway. Just wing it. Guesstimeate the numbers and make sure that the prices you arrive at are close to comparable items. It saves a lot of time and really doesn't detract from the game at all. I would argue that the rules for determining prices are geared more towards professional designers anyway.
Third, don't allow every prestige class. In fact, you should keep the core classes, and then decide which PRC's to allow in your campaign as opposed to deciding which ones not to allow in your campaign. There are so many classes with funky class abilities that if every player took a PRC, you could spend the entire game session just figuring out abilities for a single combat.
Fourth, get very familliar with the table 8-1, P. 177 in the DMG. If you know that page, your stacking problems will be over.
And finally, don't get hung up on attacks of opportunity. They seem a lot more complicated than they really need to be. Basically if you leave a threatenned square or pass through a threatenned square, then you provoke an attack of opportunity.
Keep it simple and the game will flow much more easily for you.
Gothmog
First Post
Just a note: Earlier in this thread, scarymonkey mentioned Savage Worlds by Pinnacle. I just got a copy yesterday, and it is without a doubt one of the tightest, simplest, and best rules-systems I have ever seen. Anything you can do with 3E can be done with SW, but without all the bookkeeping. Its as if you crossed all the best aspects of 3E (feats, options, levels, templates) and combined it with what makes Deadlands wonderful (edges, hinderances, open skill selection, "aces" on dice, wounds rather than HP, etc). Although I haven't played it yet, I made a complete beginning character in 10 MINUTES, and the equivalent of a 10th level character (what they term a "Heroic" character) in 20 MINUTES!!! Best of all, it can be extrapolated to ANY genre or style of play, from heroic to realistic, fantasy to sci-fi, horror to comical and the rules look like they will hang together at any level. They even include 40 or so spells in the book, vehicle rules, monsters, and TONS of optional rules for those that want them. Anyone wanting to lessen the bookkeeping should check this game out- Pinnacle never dissapoints! I'd be happy to answer any questions anyone has about it as well.
Savage Worlds Info
Savage Worlds Info
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