How Do You Get Over All Of The Number Crunching?
- Thread starter Aluvial
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Gothmog
First Post
Point taken Numion. Some friends and I are going to play it tomorrow- I am going to run a short CoC scenario. I can say that the prep time to convert from CoC BRP to this system was only about 1 hour, which is much less than I expected. I'll let everyone know how it goes, and offer comments/criticism of the system.
Having said that, I think all of us can understand that not every review or prview is written having played the system/adventure in question. I still love D20, despite its idiosyncricies and complexity. I was simply pointing out that this system has many of the things people like about D20, but with much less complexity. Whether the reduced complexity will be an asset or a liability remains to be seen, as well as something that depends on the preferences of each group.
Having said that, I think all of us can understand that not every review or prview is written having played the system/adventure in question. I still love D20, despite its idiosyncricies and complexity. I was simply pointing out that this system has many of the things people like about D20, but with much less complexity. Whether the reduced complexity will be an asset or a liability remains to be seen, as well as something that depends on the preferences of each group.
WayneLigon
Adventurer
28 pages of house-rules? 70+ pages? I don't have any . Didn't see the need for them. Apparently, none of my players have found all these rules 'inconsistancies'. Most seem to deal with making magic items or trying to get something for nothing, it seems; making magic items is something we've done so rarely that I guess we never bothered to take about the rules concerning them.
What number crunching? I don't see it. Describe it?
What number crunching? I don't see it. Describe it?
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WizarDru
Adventurer
Aluvial said:
I'm not sure what that has to do with the price of eggs. I certainly agree that, if you let it, numbers can make the game a pain at higher levels. However, showing that people are discussing rules interpetations in the rules forum isn't terribly indicative of anything, other than people are discussing rules. As often as not, I see clear and concise answers to those questions directly from the rules. The issue usually arises when someone disagrees with those rules, and debate ensues. Which is good, IMHO, but it doesn't necessarily show a failure of the rules.
The big difference, now, is that there ARE rules to make judgements about, as opposed to very vague suggestions, vis a vis AD&D. If Angcuru means to suggest that AD&D merely suffered from a huge amount of rules, and NOT from huge amounts of inconsistency, I don't know what to say to change his mind. It certainly doesn't reflect my experience...the big difference is that under 1e, the DM was expected to make up any sistuations that appeared amibgous, while 3e usually has some rules that apply, vague as they sometimes are.
I find that I have far fewer problems at 19th level than I did with 5th level characters. I know the rules better, feel that I have a pretty good idea of what the designers intended generally, and know what I'll tolerate. Usually, the issue is one of verisimilitude mixed with story concerns. All of which is reasonable to understand, IMHO.
I do see high-level play as requiring more numbers...but as the play has gotten closer and closer to epic, I've spent more and more time simplfying my game and depending less on lengthy prep or in-game adjudications. As the game threatens more complexity, I go out of my way to reduce it.
Dash Dannigan
First Post
Agreed WayneLigon. 3e is so tight I have never had to implement house rules. House rules are mostly for flavor, balancing special rules and cases due to a homebrew world or some such.
Inconsistencies? Not too many. Vague is some spots? Inevitably they occur, the largest are being taken care of with the revision. Number crunching eh? Most of the numbers are already crunched on the char sheet right? Its not too bad. Any problems I find during game play I discover the correct way to do myself later, through game boards, or friends.
Much as far as good advice for handling 3e rules spots have already been given so I'll decline repeating. To be honest I didn't have the entirety of the system down pat until after I ran 2 campaigns and played in 3 others. So don't feel in a bind when you come across a part of the system and feel swamped. It comes in time, never fear.
As for some I've met who continue to have problems with 3e I find as I meet such individuals that the problems they have are really their own and not specific to the system interestingly enough. I've seen more DMs have problems with 3e because they hadn't yet perceived the entirety of the system. They think one part of the system is broken because they have yet to read about or come across a rule in the DMG or even the PH. Surprised the heck outta me. One DM was upset because he thought some races were way overpowered than others, thats when I sat him down and explained ECLs and what they really meant, lol. Another was ticked that his monsters were getting whacked easily by his players but I soon discovered he didn't even know what the special abilities of his monsters even did.
Cruious, how long did it take game groups to learn how to play and feel at ease and comfortable with the rules in previous editions to D&D, if ever?
edit- interestingly enough I believe the so-called "mystery" of the game is gone because most everything is covered in the rules. No longer does it seem the DM have to make on the spot game interpretations when there are bold-faced answers right there in the book that anyone can take a gander at. This mystery is easily found again by the DM making something of his own devising something his players have never seen or heard before. Thats all. Cheers!
Inconsistencies? Not too many. Vague is some spots? Inevitably they occur, the largest are being taken care of with the revision. Number crunching eh? Most of the numbers are already crunched on the char sheet right? Its not too bad. Any problems I find during game play I discover the correct way to do myself later, through game boards, or friends.
Much as far as good advice for handling 3e rules spots have already been given so I'll decline repeating. To be honest I didn't have the entirety of the system down pat until after I ran 2 campaigns and played in 3 others. So don't feel in a bind when you come across a part of the system and feel swamped. It comes in time, never fear.
As for some I've met who continue to have problems with 3e I find as I meet such individuals that the problems they have are really their own and not specific to the system interestingly enough. I've seen more DMs have problems with 3e because they hadn't yet perceived the entirety of the system. They think one part of the system is broken because they have yet to read about or come across a rule in the DMG or even the PH. Surprised the heck outta me. One DM was upset because he thought some races were way overpowered than others, thats when I sat him down and explained ECLs and what they really meant, lol. Another was ticked that his monsters were getting whacked easily by his players but I soon discovered he didn't even know what the special abilities of his monsters even did.
Cruious, how long did it take game groups to learn how to play and feel at ease and comfortable with the rules in previous editions to D&D, if ever?
edit- interestingly enough I believe the so-called "mystery" of the game is gone because most everything is covered in the rules. No longer does it seem the DM have to make on the spot game interpretations when there are bold-faced answers right there in the book that anyone can take a gander at. This mystery is easily found again by the DM making something of his own devising something his players have never seen or heard before. Thats all. Cheers!
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Gothmog
First Post
I think house rules depend strongly on what you want out of the game, and how well the core rules mesh with your game world. For me, the core rules aren't very close in flavor (eg, I use only humans, VERY different arcane and spiritual casters, a grittier type of game, require specific components to create certain items, etc), so the core rules don't do a good job of capturing the flavor of my world. One annoying thing to me is the inevitable power creep in 3E, so I had make house rules to deal with the fact that I use a lower magic world. The other house rules are mostly additions/corrections/revisions of classes, feats, and spells I don't agree with. Other people are perfectly happy with the core rules and the assumptions they work under. To each his own.
Um, try creating an NPC party of 5 13th level characters, fleshed out with skills, feats, items, spells, etc. Personally, without the aid of PCGen or Jamis Buck's NPC Generator, it would be an overwhelming task for the DM to do in a timely manner. As it is now, I let the programs do the number crunching work, then I re-assign feats and skills as needed to flesh out the NPCs.
I think the main thing that ends up burning DMs out on 3E is the sheer amount of prep time involved in 3E compared to previous editions. Time that could be spent making interesting plots, cool locales, weird critters, and painting minis is now needed to stat out NPCs. I don't even attempt to stat out most NPCs, only those that I know I will need stats for, and it still takes me 3-4 hours per 12 hour session I run JUST TO STAT OUT NPCs! In 1E and 2E, I spent about 6 hours total for each 12 hour session I ran, including painting minis. I really do like 3E, but sometimes the sheer complexity of the system is really rough on DMs for prep.
Gothmog
First Post
Nope Angcuru, not all NPCs, just the ones I am pretty sure the PCs are going to gank. 
I tend to use more humans with class levels than monsters, so I know that is part of it. And I have winged it (making up NPC stats, monster abilities, spells, etc) more times than I can count. I look at the rules as suggestions, not absolute laws- it works pretty well that way, and my players are none the wiser. 
I tend to use more humans with class levels than monsters, so I know that is part of it. And I have winged it (making up NPC stats, monster abilities, spells, etc) more times than I can count. I look at the rules as suggestions, not absolute laws- it works pretty well that way, and my players are none the wiser. Aluvial said:
However, what's the difference between a magic item the party has because it was given as loot, vs. magic items they themselves created?
NOTHING!!!
Therefore, yank out the DMG and tell them, "Okay. I'm going to follow the GM rule of thumb for magic items and treasure for levels. If you create your own magic items, I can't give out treasure. I assume you don't want EL's based on your treasure, as opposed to your character level."
On The Forge, they use terms like "gamist" "simulationist" and "narrativist". "Simulationist" means thinking "how many scrolls per day". "Gamist" means "how do you moderate treasure to preserve game balance?"
Or attack 'em with kobold sorcerors with scrolls like that Gygax guy is doing...
Cedric.
aka. Washu! ^O^
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