How Do You Handle "Kicker" Damage?

[Jack99]

So the real question boils down to "what is a cleric power", yeah?

Melora's Tide says in the upper-right corner it's a "feat power". It's explicitly not a "cleric attack", "cleric utility", or "cleric feature." Sounds like a shut case to me.

And yes, I do know about the channel divinity thing. But I don't think a prerequisite should be seen as a definition.

Aye, since a paladin can pick it just as easily, it can't really be a cleric power.

The rules do not explicitly cover the problem of ongoing damage or healing effects.

As for ongoing healing effects, we`ve in our group have ruled it the way that these never stack with any bonus. If you rule it otherweise, you`ll end up with characters which easily have double digit regeneration early on in herioc tier. And I hope nobody is going to argue that this would be balanced.

Even if you dont push it this far: depending on the duration of the encounter such effects would benefit easily 10 or 20 times as much as a "normal" (not-ongoing) healing power, and I seriously doubt that the designers intended this.

If we look at just about every power that gives ongoing damage, then nothing adds to that damage, unless it's specifically stated in the text of the power. Would make sense if regeneration (the opposite of regen) worked the same way.

 

[keterys]

I dunno what regeneration does in -your- games, but in MY PHB, it's a special form of healing that restores a fixed number of hit points per round.



Healer's Lore asks 'Is this healing granted by a cleric power with the Healing keyword?'

Regeneration is healing -by definition-, so that qualifies for the 'is this healing' part. If it is granted by Melora's Tide, it qualifies under the 'granted' part. Melora's Tide is a cleric class feature so it qualifies as a Cleric power. It has the Healing keyword.

Therefore it satisfies each and every word and syllable of Healer's Lore verbatim.

Just to verify - in your game, when someone takes a second wind after Divine Vigor is used on them, they add the cleric's healing lore to it?

Because second wind is a form of healing, and its use was granted by Divine Vigor.

It is a Cleric Healing power, and all that.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

Just to verify - in your game, when someone takes a second wind after Divine Vigor is used on them, they add the cleric's healing lore to it?

Because second wind is a form of healing, and its use was granted by Divine Vigor.

It is a Cleric Healing power, and all that.

For my part, I'd say no. The power did not grant healing. It just refreshed the usage of Second Wind.

It's a similar scenario to Divine Armor, a level 16 power. Divine Armor has the healing keyword, but doesn't actually heal any damage (why they gave it the keyword, then, I don't know). Because no damage was healed, Healer's Lore doesn't activate, at least the way I see it.

 

[DracoSuave]

Channel Divinity isn't a -prerequisite- for Melora's Tide.

Well it is, but it's a prerequisite because Melora's Tide is a part of Channel Divinity.

First: It's -called- Channel Divinity: Melora's Tide.

Second: The description -for- Channel Divinity explicitly states that Divinity feats add different applications for the Channel Divinity class feature.

When you take Melora's Tide, you are taking an alternate use for the Channel Divinity class feature. If not, then why does using Melora's Tide use up your class feature for the encounter?

 

[Danceofmasks]

Same reason basic melee attack isn't a fighter class feature.
Your class feature grants a use of a power that isn't a class feature.

 

[DracoSuave]

Just to verify - in your game, when someone takes a second wind after Divine Vigor is used on them, they add the cleric's healing lore to it?

Because second wind is a form of healing, and its use was granted by Divine Vigor.

It is a Cleric Healing power, and all that.

No, because it doesn't provide actual healing. It merely allows a second use of one of the character's abilities. It's the same deal as if a Warlord has a bonus to damage and uses Commander's Strike on his buddy. Even more divorced because the player's second wind is not dependant on the cleric's power; He might not spend it.

Regeneration, however, is -definately- hit points increasing, and -definately- has a source in the cleric's power, and is not 'laundered' through the activation of a secondary ability.

 

[DracoSuave]

Same reason basic melee attack isn't a fighter class feature.
Your class feature grants a use of a power that isn't a class feature.

But it's still that class feature in use. If it weren't, it wouldn't be [Name of Class feature]: Melora's Tide.

You cannot divorce Channel Divinity from a power named Channel Divinity: X.


You might have a point when Basic Melee Attack becomes the name 'Combat Challenge: Basic Melee Attack'. I will note, it does not.

You might also have a point if the class feature didn't -explicitly- state that there were alternate uses for the class feature through Divinity Feats.

 

[Danceofmasks]

You're not.
Channel divinity is a cleric class feature.
Melora's tide is a feat power.
Channel divinity allows you to use melora's tide.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

I'm of the opinion that CD: Melora's Tide activates Healer's Lore (HL). Taking the feat opens up another way to use the CD cleric feature. So when a cleric uses CD: Melora's Tide, he is using a cleric class feature that grants useage of a power. Like Healing Word (HW), this power is granted from a cleric feature, and it has the healing keyword. So I'd say HL activates.

Now, it could be said that because the healing from CD: Melora's Tide comes from a cleric feature and not a cleric power (HL says "cleric powers with the healing keyword"), then it wouldn't activate HL. But HW is also technically a cleric feature, and I think it's generally assumed that HL applies to that (the text is also somewhat inconsistent, saying the HW is "power" in HW's description, but saying it's "like a power" just before HW's write-up).

 

[Dracorat]

So, DS:

If a second class was ever created that also had "Channel Divinity" but different uses for it (say ... bolstering elementals) ... would they be able to use "Melora's Tide" or would the answer be "no" because you have somehow adjudicated that it's a "cleric" ability instead of a feat ability?