How Do You Handle "Kicker" Damage?

[Danceofmasks]

You mean, like paladin?

 

[Dracorat]

And for the record, it says "Feat Power" right on the power. In the cleric list, they say "Cleric Feature" instead.

That's pretty clear.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

And for the record, it says "Feat Power" right on the power. In the cleric list, they say "Cleric Feature" instead.

That's pretty clear.

Well, Healer's Lore says "cleric powers with the healing keyword." Thus, by a strict reading, Healing Word should not get the extra benefit provided by Healer's Lore, because Healing Word is a class feature and not a power. However, I don't think anyone would argue that Healer's Lore doesn't enhance Healing Word.

It's clear to me that when CD: Melora's Tide is used when a cleric, it's a cleric feature/power because the cleric is using a cleric class feature to use it.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

So, DS:

If a second class was ever created that also had "Channel Divinity" but different uses for it (say ... bolstering elementals) ... would they be able to use "Melora's Tide" or would the answer be "no" because you have somehow adjudicated that it's a "cleric" ability instead of a feat ability?

I don't know what you're getting at, here. Paladin's and invoker's both have Channel Divinity as a class feature, and both have different uses for it. I suspect avengers will function similarly. If so, then if these three classes spend the feat, they all could use CD: Melora's Tide.

 

[keterys]

No, because it doesn't provide actual healing. It merely allows a second use of one of the character's abilities. It's the same deal as if a Warlord has a bonus to damage and uses Commander's Strike on his buddy. Even more divorced because the player's second wind is not dependant on the cleric's power; He might not spend it.

Regeneration, however, is -definately- hit points increasing, and -definately- has a source in the cleric's power, and is not 'laundered' through the activation of a secondary ability.

Regeneration is another power that activates and provides healing, much like second wind. The fact that it does so without taking an action doesn't matter any more than it matters that it doesn't work when below 0 hp while second wind can.

You trigger the power and go 'Okay, did this power just heal the target?' ... and the answer is no, curiously enough. 'But, it does eventually'. Sure, and so does Divine Vigor...

Similarly, when you use Beacon of Hope, Healer's Lore applies to the amount you heal right then... but you don't also go "Well, it makes the cleric heal 5 more, and next he uses Healing Word, so that heals 1d6 + Wis (Healer's Lore for Healing Word) + (5 + Wis (Healer's Lore for Beacon of Hope)), for 1d6 + 5 + Wisx2.

I'll admit, though - the semantic argument is probably secondary to the 'Is the game less enjoyable if Melora's Tide worked that way?' question, which pretty much settles how it should work.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

Aye, since a paladin can pick it just as easily, it can't really be a cleric power.

Well, Prime Shot is a class feature for warlocks and rangers, so it's not unprecedented for the same ability to be a class feature for different classes.

 

[Dracorat]

Thus, by a strict reading, Healing Word should not get the extra benefit provided by Healer's Lore, because Healing Word is a class feature and not a power.

Actually, it's a power. It is listed under "Class Powers". By strict reading.

 

[Dracorat]

I don't know what you're getting at, here. Paladin's and invoker's both have Channel Divinity as a class feature, and both have different uses for it. I suspect avengers will function similarly. If so, then if these three classes spend the feat, they all could use CD: Melora's Tide.

I agree they could. And they'd be using a feat-granted ability. Not a class-granted one.

 

[Dracorat]

Well, Prime Shot is a class feature for warlocks and rangers, so it's not unprecedented for the same ability to be a class feature for different classes.

And listed separately in both.

If on the other hand, they had "Automatic Feat: Prime Shot" with a power called "Prime Shot" granted by such feat, it would be a feat power.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

Regeneration is another power that activates and provides healing, much like second wind. The fact that it does so without taking an action doesn't matter any more than it matters that it doesn't work when below 0 hp while second wind can.

For me, the difference is that the healing provided by Divine Power (the regeneration) is caused directly by the power. In the case of Divine Vigor, no healing was provided by the power. The power just refreshes the use of the Second Wind action.

You trigger the power and go 'Okay, did this power just heal the target?' ... and the answer is no, curiously enough. 'But, it does eventually'. Sure, and so does Divine Vigor...

No, Divine Vigor did not heal the target. Again, it just refreshes the use of the Second Wind action.

Similarly, when you use Beacon of Hope, Healer's Lore applies to the amount you heal right then... but you don't also go "Well, it makes the cleric heal 5 more, and next he uses Healing Word, so that heals 1d6 + Wis (Healer's Lore for Healing Word) + (5 + Wis (Healer's Lore for Beacon of Hope)), for 1d6 + 5 + Wisx2.

Right, but those 5 extra hit points are the effect of the power, and it's clear IMO that they augment heals in a manner similar to Healer's Lore (a bonus effect as it were). In the case of regeneration provided by CD: Melora's Tide or Divine Power, the regeneration is actual healing, provided by a cleric power.

I guess that if the cleric uses a power that grants regeneration (Divine Power or CD: Melora's Tide), that regeneration would get an extra 5 + Wis mod. I will grant that that does seem high, and it does make me begin to question if that is what the designers intended. But I think it's the proper interpretation by the RAW.

I'll admit, though - the semantic argument is probably secondary to the 'Is the game less enjoyable if Melora's Tide worked that way?' question, which pretty much settles how it should work.

IMO, if there is every any doubt about a rule, it's best to rule in favor of the players, whatever that may be.