How Do You Handle "Kicker" Damage?

[keterys]

But it's really simple in concept.

Heh, not so simple, no.

The regeneration is healing granted by a power.

It's regeneration granted by a power, in the same sense that a power that increases someone's healing surge value is an increase in healing surge value. Yes, they're going to end up more healed than otherwise, but that doesn't change it from not directly being healing and affected by Healer's Lore.

But, yes, probably best to not debate this further and instead hope that they eventually FAQ (or errata) appropriately for clarification. Joining a long list of such things

Consecrated Ground is boosted by Healing Lore, which makes it even better than advertised.

And it so didn't need to be better than advertised, sadly.

 

[DracoSuave]

I dunno what regeneration does in -your- games, but in MY PHB, it's a special form of healing that restores a fixed number of hit points per round.

Regeneration is a special form of healing that restores a fixed number of hit points per round.

Healer's Lore asks 'Is this healing granted by a cleric power with the Healing keyword?'

Regeneration is healing -by definition-, so that qualifies for the 'is this healing' part. If it is granted by Melora's Tide, it qualifies under the 'granted' part. Melora's Tide is a cleric class feature so it qualifies as a Cleric power. It has the Healing keyword.

Therefore it satisfies each and every word and syllable of Healer's Lore verbatim.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Melora's Tide is a cleric class feature so it qualifies as a Cleric power.

This is the point that can be argued - you're using a cleric (or paladin) class feature, but the Melora's Tide stat block is explicit about it being a "Feat Power". There's a step you're assuming, that seems to state "Any Feat Power that is related to a Cleric Class Feature is by extension a Cleric Power", but that doesn't appear in... well, MY PHB...

-Hyp.

 

[DracoSuave]

The power isn't Melora's Tide tho. It's Channel Divinity -used as- Melora's Tide. That's what keeps it a Cleric Feature. Channel Divinity is -very much- a Cleric Class Feature, and alternate uses of it are -also- defined within that Class Feature -explicitly-.

The exact definition for what you are doing, according to the PHB, is learning an additional use for Channel Divinity.

I didn't agree with it at first either, but that's what's come out of WoTC, and these are the rationalizations they give, and they make sense.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The power isn't Melora's Tide tho.

Yes, it is; PHB p192, Divinity Feats:
Divinity feats grant characters who have the Channel Divinity class feature (clerics and paladins) the use of special powers from their deity. The power associated with each of these feats follows the feat description.

The feat grants the use of a power; the power associated with the feat is described. The power that the Melora's Tide divinity feat grants is Channel Divinity: Melora's Tide, and the feat has a prerequisite of the Channel Divinity class feature; the power, however, is a Feat Power, not a Cleric (or Paladin) power.

PHB p1, Channel Divinity: The divinity feats in Chapter 6 grant characters with access to the Channel Divinity class feature the ability to use additional special powers.

Channel Divinity: Melora's Tide is an additional special power that the class feature (in conjunction with the feat) grants access to; it is not a class feature itself. Rather, it is a feat power.

You need to use the Channel Divinity class feature in order to use the Channel Divinity: Melora's Tide feat power, but that doesn't make Channel Divinity: Melora's Tide a cleric power.

-Hyp.

 

[DracoSuave]

So, Channel Divinity: Melora's Tide isn't a part of the Channel Divinity class feature, despite the fact the class feature explicitly states additional abilities you take, including divinity feats, are alternate uses of the class feature?

And the feat power -itself- starts with 'Channel Divinity'?

 

[Nahat Anoj]

Regarding Healer's Lore, the text for the class feature says "when you grant healing with one of your cleric powers that has the healing keyword, add your Wisdom modifier to the hitpoints the recipient gains." So I'd say that if the power has the healing keyword, the cleric adds his Wis mod to the hit points gained, no matter what.

For example, looking at Divine Power, a level 9 cleric prayer, it has the keyword "healing" and the effect "Until the end of the encounter, you gain regeneration 5..." So here is how I see it being played out:

1. Cleric used the power, gains the effect.

2. Start of cleric's next turn. He gains 5 hit points. How were these hit points gained? From a power. Is this power a cleric power with the healing keyword? Yes. Then add the cleric's Wis mod to the 5.

And so on until the end of the encounter (or the PC is reduced to 0 hit points, in which case the regeneration ends).

Healer's Lore does say "when you grant healing," suggesting some kind of active process on the cleric's part, and the regeneration could be considered more "automatic." But, according to page 293 in the PHB, regeneration is "a special form of healing," and this healing certainly was granted by the cleric. So it seems to me that the cleric's Wis mod should still be added in to the amount regenerated.

 

[Jack99]

Interesting arguments.

I don't think it was intended that way though. Regen 10 or 11 sounds like a lot, especially at level 9 and for the whole encounter.


I tried to look through the CS thread on the WotC boards, but couldn't find the ruling you were referring to.

 

[Belphanior]

So the real question boils down to "what is a cleric power", yeah?

Melora's Tide says in the upper-right corner it's a "feat power". It's explicitly not a "cleric attack", "cleric utility", or "cleric feature." Sounds like a shut case to me.

And yes, I do know about the channel divinity thing. But I don't think a prerequisite should be seen as a definition.

 

[Bond James Bond]

The rules do not explicitly cover the problem of ongoing damage or healing effects.

As for ongoing healing effects, we`ve in our group have ruled it the way that these never stack with any bonus. If you rule it otherweise, you`ll end up with characters which easily have double digit regeneration early on in herioc tier. And I hope nobody is going to argue that this would be balanced.

Even if you dont push it this far: depending on the duration of the encounter such effects would benefit easily 10 or 20 times as much as a "normal" (not-ongoing) healing power, and I seriously doubt that the designers intended this.