D&D 5E (2024) How do you handle surprised but won initiative?

[DragonLancer]

I don't call for initiative until something happens to trigger it. If the party have snuck up and are watching the baddies unobserved, they get an action to trigger the combat and then we roll for init.

 

[Artamo]

This nonsense has a Viva la Dirt League skit written all over it. Another 2024 5E "improvement" no one asked for.

So the party sets up an ambush to take down an enemy patrol, successfully hiding and otherwise preparing, and when they strike everyone has to roll initiative and potentially the ambush is ruined? What's the point of such a system?

Why do you dismiss what people write so casually as nonsense? That’s a pretty accurate statement of the way 2024 breaks down, and a number of people had a problem with 5e’s surprise rules because it could result in an entire combat being trivialized as well as people constantly referring to it as a “surprise round.”

Having one entire side rolling initiative at disadvantage can still have an impact without it tipping the scale too far.

 

[Reynard]

Why do you dismiss what people write so casually as nonsense?

Sorry -- I meant the rule is nonsense, not the post.

That’s a pretty accurate statement of the way 2024 breaks down, and a number of people had a problem with 5e’s surprise rules because it could result in an entire combat being trivialized as well as people constantly referring to it as a “surprise round.”

It worked fine.

Having one entire side rolling initiative at disadvantage can still have an impact without it tipping the scale too far.

But it completely trivializes the ambush. What's the point?

 

[Artamo]

Sorry -- I meant the rule is nonsense, not the post.

It worked fine.

It worked fine except when other people had problems with it. I mean, this is just going to come down to anecdotes but I’ve seen others complain about this online before. I heard Mike Shea say it has trivialized combats in his campaigns before in some of his podcast episodes. So I don’t know what else to say other than it worked fine for you.

But it completely trivializes the ambush. What's the point?

It’s still making one side roll at disadvantage. The odds are that those rolling normally are going to go first. It’s just not a guarantee. The design choice was that ambushing as a tactic needed to not tip the scale of combats too far in the direction of a one sided win. But this is also one of those rule differences between 5e and 5.5 that one could swap wholesale based on preference.

Like, have we completely abandoned the idea of house rules for fun and based on what one wants to accomplish?

 

[Charlaquin]

This nonsense has a Viva la Dirt League skit written all over it. Another 2024 5E "improvement" no one asked for.

So the party sets up an ambush to take down an enemy patrol, successfully hiding and otherwise preparing, and when they strike everyone has to roll initiative and potentially the ambush is ruined? What's the point of such a system?

I strongly suspect the point is to nerf ambush strategies. Surprise is busted powerful in 5.0. Personally, I’m fine with that being the case, but I’d imagine the thinking was that advantage on initiative is still impactful without making surprise a near auto-win, and then DMs can feel more free to grant surprise (to either side of a combat) more freely since it isn’t basically a free win.

 

[billd91]

This nonsense has a Viva la Dirt League skit written all over it. Another 2024 5E "improvement" no one asked for.

So the party sets up an ambush to take down an enemy patrol, successfully hiding and otherwise preparing, and when they strike everyone has to roll initiative and potentially the ambush is ruined? What's the point of such a system?

Mostly because the number of examples that involve highly skilled characters reacting to surprise attacks before the attack lands in our inspiration media is substantial. Being sufficiently stealthy vs surprised does stack the deck pretty hard in achieving initiative (advantage for the hidden ambusher vs disadvantage for the surprised target), but the trope of the hero who still reacts faster even when ambushed can be preserved.

Same even with non-surprise situations like a gun fight. Cowpoke A starts to draw, but Gunslinger B draws and shoots faster - he rolled higher initiative.

This also tends to interact with some of the more powerful monsters in 5e.2024 adding their proficiency bonus to their initiative checks by making those powerful monsters a lot harder to get the drop on even if their passive perception isn't all that high. It will help keep higher CR creatures from being chumps to the PCs.

 

[Charlaquin]

I could be wrong, but I think Viva La Dirt League did do a sketch about initiating combat but rolling lower for initiative than the target of your attack. I know I have definitely seen a comedy sketch about that at least, might have been a different group though.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

When a combat is designed to last 3-5 rounds, having two rounds of attacks before the surprised side gets to go (as could happen in 5e14) was far, far too much. It worked fine when that didn't happen, sure, but the "monsters" had to be mighty quick for that not to happen. 5e24 works fine when everyone on the surprising side doesn't roll crap for init, or conversely, the surprised side doesn't roll too well. But still, when they do, there is plenty of "excuses" (many listed above) that explain it. Myself, I'd use any of those, and more, depending on exactly what the combat is about, and who is in it (on both sides).

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I could be wrong, but I think Viva La Dirt League did do a sketch about initiating combat but rolling lower for initiative than the target of your attack. I know I have definitely seen a comedy sketch about that at least, might have been a different group though.

Surprise doesn't even need to be a factor for that strangeness to occur, if you let it!

(Again, I feel like it's easily mitigated by simply narrating it differently).

BUT I do agree that it can be funny if you look at it that way.

 

[Reynard]

Like, have we completely abandoned the idea of house rules for fun and based on what one wants to accomplish?

I am not sure how you got there. I said the rule was bad, not that I was going to force myself to use it.