D&D 5E How do you keep your players going from "goblins to gods" in your games?

[Ancalagon]

Keeping AC-boosting items to +1 bonus I think is quite important for Bounded Accuracy to keep lower level monsters threatening.

This is definitely important. While a +2 weapon feels "better" than a +2 shield, increased AC can make the PCs feel invulnerable, and that's not a good thing. After divination items, defense items probably have the most impact on the game.

 

[hejtmane]

The first thing I did is removed +to hit on all my magic items since we have bounded accuracy. I think + to hit is way to strong.

Change up the monster used then; also update the monster used add ac, +tohit, +damage, +HP any of those things to the monsters they fight add multiple monsters change things up even on a dungeon crawl you can also use monster you may normally add to a dungeon. Create a NPC and add that into the fight.

 

[the Jester]

As an inveterate sandbox DM, if the pcs want to keep dealing with bandits and goblins instead of high-level threats, that's fine by me. Things are easier and safer for them at the cost of lower rewards (less xp, less treasure). The slower pace of advancement allows the game to go on longer, while the occasional high-level monster or massive group of enemies can still provide a meaningful challenge. Of course, I'm fine with the pcs (usually) steamrolling weak enemies if that's how they want to roll, but not every group enjoys that sort of thing.

EDIT: Also, I'll point out that a massive group of enemies might be as difficult as one higher-powered enemy but be worth far fewer xps.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

I run a believable, logical and consistent campaign.

What I mean by that is I don't "design adventures/encounters" around the PC's. I design them around the world. The PC's are the ones "interacting with the world"...not the "world interacting with the PC's". (I hope that makes sense).

I have played in a few campaigns over the decades where the DM "designed" the adventures, NPC's, and basically the world, around our PC's. Every single one of those 'campaigns' felt like a self-contained group birthday party. Every PC was "special" and "destined for greatness". It didn't matter what we did in-game...the pre-defined activities were already laid out in the schedule. There wasn't any sense that our PC's lives and destiny was in our own hands. At the end of these campaigns (always fading out after a few months), they felt like "stories we were playing a part in". Like we were spectators and not writers.

Anyway...by switching up to a "campaign world FIRST...player characters SECOND" mentality I give my players the indisputable fact that they are the ones driving. I learned this after about a year or two of DM'ing (back in...oh, 1981 or so). I've been DM'ing this way ever since...and I'm almost always DM, so I must be doing something right.

So, if you don't want your player characters to go from "zero's, to heroes", don't set your world up to foster that. Let the PC's decide their own fate. Sometimes they will choose things far beneath their capabilities, and sometimes far over them. Just last night, for example, our new campaign (as in 1st real session for this one) had the PC's making their way to "The Cave of The Tenticles". A supposed sea-side cave guarded by poisonous and rather agressive octopi. So dangerous that the pirates around the area have stopped going there to hide treasure...or return for it. The PC's find the cave and hit the beach. They are attacked by Sandlings (old 1e monster originally created for A4, In the Dungeons of the Slave Lords...I used the 5th Edition Foes MM by Necromancer Games). They are CR1, but there were 8. The group of 5 PC's almost died in three rounds! They decided to hot-foot it out of there. Nope. No way are they going to do that, they figured. So...back at town, they took another job; kill an ornery badger who's been pestering a farmers cows. Success! One dead badger, and 2gp reward.

The point of all that is: The world has stuff going on. The players make the decisions on what to do. If you, as DM, are "designing encounters" based on your PC's capabilities all the time, you are going to get the "barely able to kill goblins one day, then killing off gods by the end of the month" because that is what you are designing. It doesn't matter, from a player perspective, what they 'choose' for their PC's because you, as DM, are designing encounters around their PC's and not their PC's choices. For example, if they are all 3rd level and hear of a white dragon in a nearby ice-cave and head off to get it and take it's treasure...you, as DM, should not be designing it so that they have a "reasonable chance of success, as 3rd level characters". You should be looking at your campaign world notes, seeing that this white dragon has been called "Frostbite" by the locals for the last one-hundred years, and that it is feared and avoided by all. You pick an Adult Dragon, design it's lair based on what it would logically be for such a beast, and let the PC's walk in to their deaths...or, if they're smart, walk up to the area, realize the folly of what they are thinking, and turn around, beating a hasty retreat before even getting close to the cave entrance. By doing it this way, there is not expectation of "fairness from the world". There is not expectation that "we're 1st level, so we fight goblins", or that "we're 20th level, so we fight demigods". There is no "expectation" of anything other than what the world tells them to expect. "The goblin caves...probably has goblins in it" is the expectation...not "The goblin caves...probably has goblins...lead by a trio of mind-flayers, their ogre henchmen, and a contingent of mid-level drow...because, you know, we're all 8th level".

Sorry for the length!

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Nickolaidas]

What I mean by that is: how do you keep your players going from killing goblins to killing gods? How do you tone down the encounter treadmill? Example: My players get tired of the same old starting out at 1st level and killing things like kobolds and goblins and then as they gain levels the encounters have to become bigger and badder. They like to dungeon crawl and explore without making a massive impact on the world as a whole. They have no interest in fighting gods and primordials, they just want to continue fighting normal creatures with maybe the highest being "a" dragon. How do you progress your players without bringing out the big guns?

I'd like some clarification on your players' wants. When they mean 'goblins' and not 'Gods' what do they mean? For example, do they want goblins and not Gods because a goblin is, more or less, a melee attack each round, while a god is ability damage, massive spell pandemonium and generally, an unpredictable foe which can create longterm problems for the party? Do they fear godlike foes because of their complicated attack patterns or do they just find it cheesy and silly to fight gods as if they were a boss fight?

As for how long you can cut it ... well, the Yuan-ti is the strongest humanoid race in the MM with a single Yuan-ti abomination being CR7, which means that a large force of 6-7 Yuan-ti abominations should be able to create difficulty for players up to 10-11 level easily.

But your players seem to be creating a paradox. They don't want things to change, and on the other hand, they want to level up. Unfortunately, leveling up brings change, sooner or later. Wanting to keep going after orcs and goblins at level 12 is like training for the NBA ever since you were six, and when you reach that level you still want to go play basketball at kindergarten. It just doesn't work.

You can still keep it simple in campaign scope by dungeon crawling - have forgotten tombs with devils imprisoned inside, or haunted towers with a lich on top, making arcane experiments. It's simple if the players don't want the quest to involve kingdoms and bureaucracy - but the monsters have to bring bigger guns because the PCs themselves get bigger guns. It's called escalation.

If they don't want liches and archfiends, don't level them up past a certain level (say, 8). This, of course creates a major problem since most rpgs' philosophy is *built* upon level progression, but ... they can't have their cake and eat it too.

My two cents.

 

[Sunseeker]

This is definitely important. While a +2 weapon feels "better" than a +2 shield, increased AC can make the PCs feel invulnerable, and that's not a good thing. After divination items, defense items probably have the most impact on the game.

I like players who feel invulnerable. It's all that much more satisfying when the go crunch between my monster's teeth. Plus it lets me up the general ante of the game, monsters may hit less often, but their hits deal more damage. I find players react in a more realistic fashion to taking a few large hits than taking several dozen meaningless ones.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I also advocate the use of gods and goblins at a wider level range. You may be surprised how well the inhabitants of a certain nectomancer's cave designed for level 1 chars in an official adventure seriously troubled a level 6 party of 5 adventurers. Didn't propose a real threat but the PCs were unsure about that and used a lot of resources.
Although you should talk to your players. Some do like to win all the time and expect you to balance the encounters. It takes practise to realise timely when to admit deafeat.

 

[Psikerlord#]

The first thing I did is removed +to hit on all my magic items since we have bounded accuracy. I think + to hit is way to strong.

Change up the monster used then; also update the monster used add ac, +tohit, +damage, +HP any of those things to the monsters they fight add multiple monsters change things up even on a dungeon crawl you can also use monster you may normally add to a dungeon. Create a NPC and add that into the fight.

Yep I agree - remove all +1 etc items, only give magic items will cool abilities.

Also, cap your game at 12th level. 6th level magic tops. Note, they can still fight much higher level monsters. It is just the PCs that stop progressing at 12th (and probably retire shortly thereafter).

 

[discosoc]

This problem is one of the reasons most AD&D 2nd Edition games sort of topped out by 12 or 13. It varied by PC, due to the leveling speed differences, but the designers there were quite aware of how limited the game gets beyond that. At least in terms of what challenges you face.

With 5e, there are some interesting problems with levesl 12+ as well. Like, if you want to make undead important parts of your campaign, you have tons of options from CR 1-5, and then nothing until CR 13+. There's this entire (pardon the pun) dead zone where you either throw a ton of weaker CR 5 guys that will get mowed down, or test the waters with a vampire encounter that may kill them. Interestingly, dragons have a smoother progression curve, with possible encounters starting at CR 1 (or 1/4 if you really want to include a pseudodragon) and up to 24.

Here's what I'd really love to see happen in a future edition: Instead of monsters having static CR's, have some range between the lowly and powerful versions of a monster. Like, goblins could have a base level CR 1/8, as well as a CR 1 and a CR 2 version as well. Same with generic NPC's like guards and gladiators and stuff. It seems weird that every Veteran is CR 3, for example. With a basic change like that, you could very easily populate a dungeon or campaign with higher level encounters that don't all involve wizards and fantastically "rare" monsters.

As one of my players put it, even a 15th level fighter should feel like going toe to toe with a raging orc is dangerous. That fighter shouldn't feel like they can just wade through an entire tribe of raging orcs without any problem.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

With 5e, there are some interesting problems with levesl 12+ as well. Like, if you want to make undead important parts of your campaign, you have tons of options from CR 1-5, and then nothing until CR 13+. There's this entire (pardon the pun) dead zone where you either throw a ton of weaker CR 5 guys that will get mowed down, or test the waters with a vampire encounter that may kill them.

Are CR 5 undead significantly weaker than CR 5 fish? The level 12 party that I'm running for has just come off of victories against a lich, dragon turtle, and balor; but they were repeatedly near-wiped by groups of CR 5 fish - first by a group of three sahuagin barons riding three giant sharks, and then by five barons with one shark. The combination of HP and sheer volume of attacks made them far scarier than their CR would suggest.