D&D 5E How do you keep your players going from "goblins to gods" in your games?

[discosoc]

Are CR 5 undead significantly weaker than CR 5 fish? The level 12 party that I'm running for has just come off of victories against a lich, dragon turtle, and balor; but they were repeatedly near-wiped by groups of CR 5 fish - first by a group of three sahuagin barons riding three giant sharks, and then by five barons with one shark. The combination of HP and sheer volume of attacks made them far scarier than their CR would suggest.

Sounds more like your encounter balance is out of whack. Unless your part is like 7 or 8 people large, or you're only running one or two encounters per long rest, I can't see how they are taking on lichs and balors, unless you just did straight up no-tactics-or-INT kind of fights. In that case, the action economy is heavily skewed towards the players.

As for the fish, baron x3 and gsharks x3, that one encounter is 400 xp shy of being as difficult as a balor. And if you're not running the balor with proper tactics, I can definitely see the fish squad wrecking more havoc simply because they don't *need* tactics to shine. Also, in both cases, you're looking at borderline deadly encounters, assuming your party is at least 5 large.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you aren't doing 6-8 encounters per long rest.

 

[discosoc]

Oh, and as far as your implications that "weaker" CR 5 undead could still be rough, they aren't. I tried. Undead are stupid, thus very predictable. And quite a few classes can deal with them without much problem anyway (paladin or cleric especially).

 

[UngeheuerLich]

No. Undead are not stupid. Some of them highly intelligent. More than the average PC that dumps int.
It is also quite impudent to accuse someone of not playing correctly when it is easy in that edition to get seriois advantage over an enemy that is much higher level than you. And this is possible for both sides. Just because you tried and failed to use CR 5 creatures does not mean nobody can.

 

[discosoc]

It is also quite impudent to accuse someone of not playing correctly when it is easy in that edition to get seriois advantage over an enemy that is much higher level than you.

Not if you GM them according to their INT, and properly budget your encounters (6 to 8 per long rest).

Balor, for example. Let's pretend your group encounters a balor in a vacuum, like he just stumbled out of the abyss and wasn't really planning on this fight or something... it's still got a 20 INT, and a hell of a lot of damage potential. That means ignoring the tank and focusing on the weakest link first, preferably something that's at range. Then teleport 120 ft away and laugh while the group figures out what to do next. If they stay grouped up to try and keep the balor from ganking the wizard or something, then it just flies in and does a drive-by longsword/whip combo on -- you guessed it -- the weakest link, mostly likely dealing 6d8+8 and 5d6+8 to the poor fool, before flying off again. Sure, a few might get an OA, but that's better than a full round of attacks from them. And remember, we're talking about a group of level 12's here, so quite a few players are looking at possible one-shots from this guy (up to 94 damage, or way more if he crits, compared to level 12 HP pools).

And that's a balor that stumbled out the abyss not expecting a fight and without taking any potential terrain features into account. Just flying, teleporting, and some beastly attacks. Oh, and anytime someone does manage to hit it with a melee attack or decides to stay near the thing somehow, they'll 3d6 fire damage.


And don't get me started on a lich against a group of level 12's.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

And that's a balor that stumbled out the abyss not expecting a fight and without taking any potential terrain features into account. Just flying, teleporting, and some beastly attacks.

I think you're over-estimating how far 120 feet is, and teleporting is your entire action for the round, so you don't get any attacks. If you don't have anything to hide behind - and in this scenario you've imagined, the balor appears unexpectedly and doesn't know the terrain - then you've just wasted your turn and eaten half a dozen ranged attacks. Balors want to be in melee range. The only thing they can do beyond melee range is a whip attack, which subsequently pulls someone into melee range. No spells, no breath weapons. Any sort of clever tactics you might try with one could be returned ten-fold if the equally-intelligent PC wizard put in the same amount of thought.

So back to the topic at hand, you don't need to go from goblins to demons because demons are super weak and the goblins are more dangerous. Just use more goblins. Maybe make some slightly-higher-level red goblins, so you don't need to use quite as many of them.

 

[S'mon]

Is there any reason why 1e MM "30-300 Orcs" shouldn't challenge level 20 5e PCs?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Not if you GM them according to their INT, and properly budget your encounters (6 to 8 per long rest).

Balor, for example. Let's pretend your group encounters a balor in a vacuum, like he just stumbled out of the abyss and wasn't really planning on this fight or something... it's still got a 20 INT, and a hell of a lot of damage potential. That means ignoring the tank and focusing on the weakest link first, preferably something that's at range. Then teleport 120 ft away and laugh while the group figures out what to do next. If they stay grouped up to try and keep the balor from ganking the wizard or something, then it just flies in and does a drive-by longsword/whip combo on -- you guessed it -- the weakest link, mostly likely dealing 6d8+8 and 5d6+8 to the poor fool, before flying off again. Sure, a few might get an OA, but that's better than a full round of attacks from them. And remember, we're talking about a group of level 12's here, so quite a few players are looking at possible one-shots from this guy (up to 94 damage, or way more if he crits, compared to level 12 HP pools).

And that's a balor that stumbled out the abyss not expecting a fight and without taking any potential terrain features into account. Just flying, teleporting, and some beastly attacks. Oh, and anytime someone does manage to hit it with a melee attack or decides to stay near the thing somehow, they'll 3d6 fire damage.


And don't get me started on a lich against a group of level 12's.

You are making assumptions. Of course the Balor can do nasty things to PCs... that is why he is challenge 20. One shotting the wizard is of course something he should try. But at level 12 PCs have acces to abilities which the players can access too. Not only may their PCs have int 20 so they are allowed to do advanced tactics like hit and run... have to remind my players that it is forbidden if they only have ont 8... but probably they have some magic items or spells which may prevent some of the damage...
And as the poster before mentioned, teleport is an action so the balor is hanging around in melee for a while.
Do I believe the balor is dangerous? Yes, if played cleverly. But the PCs depending on experience an tactical understanding from the players should be able to not die.
You really don't know anything about our games. About the set up and the optimization degree of other groups. Telling them the play wrong if is very dismissive.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Is there any reason why 1e MM "30-300 Orcs" shouldn't challenge level 20 5e PCs?

Assuming the party isn't jacked up on enough defensive magic crack to be nearly immune to the attacks of the orcs then yes, it should be a good challenge. A horde of weaker creatures is usually tougher than a solo big bad assuming they have a chance to score hits.

The PCs offensive firepower doesn't matter quite as much because a spread out force can make the party waste so much damage on overkill. Impenetrable defenses, OTOH just make the whole affair tedious and boring. Keep defense numbers in check and let hit points do the job they were designed for. It makes large numbers an actual scary thing to face and forces players to come up with plans other than wading in with impunity and chopping through them. Facing a horde alone isn't very heroic if they can't actually hurt you.

 

[hejtmane]

Yep I agree - remove all +1 etc items, only give magic items will cool abilities.

Also, cap your game at 12th level. 6th level magic tops. Note, they can still fight much higher level monsters. It is just the PCs that stop progressing at 12th (and probably retire shortly thereafter).

My group is pushing to 20 I just going to ramp up monster and I waiting for my Tome of Beast to throw so new wrinkles at them

 

[Krachek]

5ed change a lot of things about CR.
In 4ed ( and other previous edition ) a +8 level encounter was almost a deadly encounter because, AC , DEF were unbeatable.
In 5ed, +8 level in CR, dont mean unbeatable AC, or save anymore.
With a good plan you can have your chance, but at the first badluck everything may collapse.