D&D General How do you like your ASIs?

[Helldritch]

I think just how much power creep this is, is debatable.

Isn't it what we are doing right now?

But my whole point is that it ISN'T power creep. We optimizers (and yes, I have no desire to play a character with a non-16 unless I roll poorly instead of doing point-buy) aren't going to be able to pick better options, because V-Human and Custom Lineage are still the best options for almost every build. All the change does is actually let us play other options to try out some different ideas without having to have an aesthetically unpleasing +2 mod in our main stat.

It's only power creep when it raises the ceiling; all floating ASIs do is raise the floor for previously suboptimal concepts.

So with fixed ASI you would not have done some builds but with floating you suddenly will? That is the very defenition of powercreep. Roleplaying does not care if the build is suboptimal. You role play. That is all you need to do. But if you absolutely want that sweet 16 or you just won't play... You just make my case much more stronger.

Is it, really?

What if I want a fire genasi who isn't inexplicably just, smarter, but instead is stronger because he's been working on a farm all his life, and just has average intelligence? Some farm folks just, had a kid who turned out to be on fire. Is that really power creep, or just, going in a particular direction for roleplay purposes? Heck, going on from that, switching out the Int bonus to Wisdom because he's just, people-smart and not book-smart.

Frankly its not power creep when the be-all end-all is V-Human which still remains atop. If anything, its rebalancing everything else to get up to V-Human's lofty standards. Hardly power creep when the top isn't budging at all and instead everything below it is getting more of a chance to shine.

Its rebalancing underpowered stuff. The power's remaining at the same top, just everything below is being given more chances.

You want a Fire Genasis that is stronger because he worked at his farm? Put a 15 as its strength score. There you go. And the last sentence is again a power creep. We eleminated a weakness, we gave more power. Gees... guys and girls, you make my case stronger by simply stating.

And were they soooo much down the road? I think not. A +1 is not the end of the world but the lack of it brings a bit of roleplaying versimilitude to a campaign. From a Role Playing stand point, Fixed ASI fare much better at conveying a believable world tnan Floating ASI.

 

[Lyxen]

For me that depends on whether random ability score generation is going to remain in the game. I like random generation, and therefore I highly value the ability to slightly customise the resultant scores. The play-feel of that is satisfying.

That is another good point, speaking of options, theoretically the only core way to generate ability scores is rolling, which we have reverted to because it's another way to control the power creep by preventing builds which rely heavily on controlling stats. And it's, for us, another reason NOT to use the Floating ASIs.

Honestly, the "satisfaction" above does not derive from anything in the game world, the stats that you increase are very probably purely the ones that give you technical power by getting you an even number. So, once more, it's all about power.

The core design (rolling stats, racial ASIs, no variant human) leads to a reasonably good generation method that prevents too much optimisation, and that's good enough for us. The only thing that we are doing is allowing some re=rolls just in case someone gets something that is really bad (we go for long campaigns, so having something really under par is not fun) or too good (again, jealousy is not good for long campaigns either).

 

[Lyxen]

V Human is rarely banned

Actually, not all campaigns use feats, so all those not using feats (or banning the most abusable) is also a red flag for variant humans. And even without officially banning them, we get very few of them because they are boring.

and is by far the best race except for the Dwarf/HalfElf/Other matching a class primary AND secondary AND feats are DM nerfed. Flying races is mostly a DM fear as flight can be easily mitigated by good DMs.

No, I'm sorry, but this is a very very lame excuse. They are game breaking, and it's dishonest to call people "bad DMs" because they don't want the hassle.

Strict optimancers go Vuman 90% of the time. It's a DM red flag.

Indeed it is.

 

[Minigiant]

Actually, not all campaigns use feats, so all those not using feats (or banning the most abusable) is also a red flag for variant humans. And even without officially banning them, we get very few of them because they are boring

Humans are boring? I though people were supposed to be roleplaying yadda yadda yadda.

Although it is kinda clear that WOTC designed the Vuman as the real human race and the normal Human was just designed for newbs to have a human champion fighter that takes 5 braincells to make.

No, I'm sorry, but this is a very very lame excuse. They are game breaking, and it's dishonest to call people "bad DMs" because they don't want the hassle.

Not bad DMs. Bad adventure designers who don't use archers, casters, throwers, rushers, and ceilings.. Flight isn't a that big a buff and only matters until magic flight spells and item come online.

Early flight negates stealth, makes you a easy target, and does nothing if low ceilings... at the time when you HP is low. And the official flying races also stink otherwise.

 

[clearstream]

That is another good point, speaking of options, theoretically the only core way to generate ability scores is rolling, which we have reverted to because it's another way to control the power creep by preventing builds which rely heavily on controlling stats. And it's, for us, another reason NOT to use the Floating ASIs.

Honestly, the "satisfaction" above does not derive from anything in the game world, the stats that you increase are very probably purely the ones that give you technical power by getting you an even number. So, once more, it's all about power.

Before continuing with that claim, you need to answer the question I posted to you (twice) up-thread.

The core design (rolling stats, racial ASIs, no variant human) leads to a reasonably good generation method that prevents too much optimisation, and that's good enough for us. The only thing that we are doing is allowing some re=rolls just in case someone gets something that is really bad (we go for long campaigns, so having something really under par is not fun) or too good (again, jealousy is not good for long campaigns either).

That isn't true. The 4d6k3 method and freedom to choose whatever race you want (and thus gain its ASIs), even barring variant human, facilitates rather than prevents optimisation.

 

[TwoSix]

So with fixed ASI you would not have done some builds but with floating you suddenly will? That is the very defenition of powercreep. Roleplaying does not care if the build is suboptimal. You role play. That is all you need to do. But if you absolutely want that sweet 16 or you just won't play... You just make my case much more stronger.

You haven't actually presented a coherent thesis to defend.

The problem with your incorrect redefinition of powercreep is that you assume an optimizer is always going to try to pick the "best" build. We don't, although there are always some more aggressive optimizers who do so. Generally, we want to play a strong build, or make the most effective character we can within certain constraints. But we also value aesthetic and concepts when we build our characters; we're just not going to sacrifice effectiveness to do so. Choosing to build strong, efficient characters is more an aesthetic choice than a game choice. Ultimately, 5e is pretty easy, and the worst thing that happens is you die and make a new character. ¯\(ツ)/¯ It's just that a deliberately weak character is inelegant and thus less fun to play.

Thus, we prize rules that let us expand our palette of choices while still maintaining strong mechanical function.

 

[TwoSix]

That is another good point, speaking of options, theoretically the only core way to generate ability scores is rolling, which we have reverted to because it's another way to control the power creep by preventing builds which rely heavily on controlling stats. And it's, for us, another reason NOT to use the Floating ASIs.

You can't simultaneously claim to be worried about a "power gap" and advocate for rolling. Strong builds are generally not predicated on "controlling stats". Any optimizer who's familiar with the game knows the best options for low stats, high stats, just one high stat, etc.

It really seems like your concern is more in establishing that "fidelity to concept" should be the only consideration when building characters, and considerations of mechanical effectiveness need to be policed out of the group.

 

[FrozenNorth]

I'm not disagreeing or even commenting on this. For the record, I am for fixed, with negative, ASI.

I’m in the one Fixed, one Floating camp. I like the fact that races have some distinctive traits, including a floor for a particular stat.

I dislike Fixed with Negative. Since the races are balanced among themselves (as it should be), this both breaks verisimilitude and makes certain class/combos even more unappetizing. 5e doesn’t require a 16 at 1st level, but starting with a 12 in your main stat in a party where everyone else has a 16, can be rough.

As for the verisimilitude aspect, this was one of the things that bugged me about PF2. Your dwarves, yes a dour, serious race, get a -2 to CHA. Goblins, a race that is explicitly called out as an underclass and often viewed as monsters, gets a +2. The more races you have in a game, the more ridiculous examples you get.

 

[clearstream]

It really seems like your concern is more in establishing that "fidelity to concept" should be the only consideration when building characters, and considerations of mechanical effectiveness need to be policed out of the group.

For me 'fidelity to (RP) concept' would be a valid position. The contradiction I see is that if fidelity to concept honestly is the concern, how can it matter if ASIs are fixed or floating? Faithful players ought to naturally place their floating ASIs according to their concept.

A residual problem is this, though. It's a game. A character is not just its fluff, but also its crunch. So at some point even fidelity to concept is going to involve placing ability scores, and if the concept is for a fighter who is going to be somewhat heroic, it is hard to see how that cannot mean said fighter is justified having their best score in their primary ability?

 

[Lyxen]

Humans are boring? I though people were supposed to be roleplaying yadda yadda yadda.

Boring because no strong culture/racial ties+hatred, in general.

Although it is kinda clear that WOTC designed the Vuman as the real human race and the normal Human was just designed for newbs to have a human champion fighter that takes 5 braincells to make.\

And here you, go who's being derogatory here ? So no, sorry, Variant Humans were interesting in 3e when feats were actually balanced, but nowdays, they are only of interest to stupid powergamers with zero imagination who only want to copy a build from the internet and lack the brain to actually create something.

Not bad DMs. Bad adventure designers who don't use archers, casters, throwers, rushers, and ceilings.. Flight isn't a that big a buff and only matters until magic flight spells and item come online.
Early flight negates stealth, makes you a easy target, and does nothing if low ceilings... at the time when you HP is low. And the official flying races also stink otherwise.

Yes, sure, because everyone plays in dungeons with low ceiling, and no, I'm sorry, but the really good adventure designers usually want to spend more time designing an adventure that is fun for everyone in the group rather than one that targets the one annoying flyer in there. And after that, it's also BAD DMing to allow an adventurer something then to target him specifically because of it.