D&D General How do you like your ASIs?

[Lanefan]

So, honest question: What about the player that wants to combine different mechanical choices with different narrative choices that are not allowed by the game - because there is supposed to be a trade-off?

Maybe that player's just out of luck this time.

There's some character concepts that just won't fly with the mechanics, and changing the mechanics to allow one such will inevitably invalidate another.

 

[Lanefan]

No. Not "the highest possible". But:
1) Higher > Lower
2) "What do I get if I go with lower rolls?"

Currently, within the rules, you are choosing between a largely narrative difference (race) and that higher roll. Which results in a huge number of people choosing the higher rolls, and the same old race:class combinations over and over again.

A design that unnecessarily encourages people to make mechanical choices at the cost of roleplaying choices is bad design, in my book.

Agreed, but as long as mechanics drive the game to the extent they do there ain't really much other option.

 

[Azzy]

And, once more, if you have an example of that, please post it, but I warn you that there, from my perspective, there is NOTHING in a character concept that requires a given stat. If you have this as the basis of your "concept" you'd better be ready to justify that, inherently, you need a higher stat than the one provided by a racial ASI.

Oh, please. I don't need to justify anything.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

Maybe this just boils down to how a table views it's PCs. I view mine as if they were the main characters if a book. I expect them to bemovers and shakers (that's what the adventures are) and be exceptional in many ways. Even from level 1.

I do not view them as Orc#3728266 fresh off the assembly line so therefore you must be a carbon copy of all the other orcs. Those orcs are in the stat block of the monster manual. They all have the same 6 stats, the same skills and equipment and go by a number.

It may depends on which book. I think we all agree that PCs are exceptional, but at what stage of their development are they?

You already have them able to break out of the mold, others would say they are first and foremost orcs at this stage. Sparrowhawk is first and foremost a herder who nearly died casting a fog spell. Of course he will be the greatest wizard of Gont, but at this point he's nothing special... He could have been killed by the shadow he summoned: first a teenager boy (WIS -10 whenever a girl is present), and a starting wizard 1. Of course, if he had been killed, there would be no novel. But acting with this knowledge may remove the sense of accomplishment of the players. "Of course we survived, we were the hero of the story" instead of "Thank god we survived so we could be heroes of the story". At level one, most classes don't even have their subclass archetype and could be seen as still in "internship". They are still more nature than nurture and personnal effort. This is just a matter of preference on how one saw the PC backstory. Already heroic or ratcatcher material?

If aplayer really wanted to play a scrawny orc, I'd approve thos backstory. "Sure you have 8 STR instead of 10 if you want, but why exactly would this backstory warrant having a +2 elsewhere? Cursed to be scrawny doesn't mean you suddenly get more intelligent."

 

[Minigiant]

In 4e a level 1 PC is already a hero. There's no zero step.

The zero step is where neither you nor anyone else really knows what talents you might have or where they might best be applied. Sure you've signed up for the high-school ball team* but whether you get cut at the first practice** or just give up on the game after graduation or go on to make it to the NBA remains to be seen.

It's that early part that's been lost. Some seem to like it that way; and they're always welcome to start their campaigns at higher levels if that floats their boats. But cutting that part right out of the designed game, as happened with 4e, is complete overkill.

* - i.e. joined an adventuring party
** - i.e. died at the first opportunity

Again you missed my point.

My point was that PCs are elite. Even when they are new and fresh. You are still Lebron James, Abraham Lincoln, Tom Brady, Usain Bolt, Albert Einstien, or Hulk Hogan. A PC is not a typical member of their race even as a greenhorn. Not in Modern D&D.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Again you missed my point.

My point was that PCs are elite. Even when they are new and fresh. You are still Lebron James, Abraham Lincoln, Tom Brady, Usain Bolt, Albert Einstien, or Hulk Hogan. A PC is not a typical member of their race even as a greenhorn. Not in Modern D&D.

Nope. Those are already accomplished people and would be 'high level.' PCs may not be average in a sense that they're untypically gifted and have potential to become great, but that is no guarantee. A lot of people who had same potential than those you mentioned never did anything particularly remarkable.

 

[Minigiant]

If aplayer really wanted to play a scrawny orc, I'd approve thos backstory. "Sure you have 8 STR instead of 10 if you want, but why exactly would this backstory warrant having a +2 elsewhere? Cursed to be scrawny doesn't mean you suddenly get more intelligent."

Because PCs in D&D now are all elite.

PCs, especially Tier 2 and beyond, all trend to having lots of positive and high ability score modifiers.

Even if you are a farmoy, you are the biggest, strongest, toughest, smartest, and/or wisest farmboy in the village of your generation.

 

[Minigiant]

Nope. Those are already accomplished people and would be 'high level.' PCs may not be average in a sense that they're untypically gifted and have potential to become great, but that is no guarantee. A lot of people who had same potential than those you mentioned never did anything particularly remarkable.

They were always accomplished.

Your level 1 PC is high school varsity Kobe Bryant.
Not everyone with high stats becomes a PC. But every PC in D&D now who makes it out of Tier 1 has high stats.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

They were always accomplished.

Your level 1 PC is high school varsity Kobe Bryant.

Or some other bloke who had equally gifted but didn't become famous. Your comparison is flawed as it implies the PCs are destined for greatness.

Not everyone with high stats becomes a PC. But every PC in D&D now who makes it out of Tier 1 has high stats.

Yes. Which doesn't guarantee success.

 

[Scott Christian]

Because PCs in D&D now are all elite.

No offense, but I have seen a level one wizard be taken out by a single hyena. A hyena! That is no more elite than a town guard. Which, by the way, I have seen a wizard get knocked out by one of those too!
I have watched two lizardfolk knock a group of five adventurers unconscious. (They were a little hurt, but still.) The point is, a 1st level PC is not elite.
Now 4th level, I would agree - they are on their way. At eighth, it's a done deal.