D&D General How Do You "Roll Up" Ability Scores?

[ichabod]

So does winning the lottery.

Actually, rolling six threes with 4d6 drop low is over 16 billion times less likely than winning the Powerball jackpot.

 

[Horwath]

That is exactly my point! Even with total control there will be imbalance.

I agree,
but one is unavoidable system imbalance(rolls) and other is player choice or better said incompetence.

If a rogue player has 15,15,15,8,8,8 scores and puts 15 in STR, INT and CHA instead of DEX, CON and WIS, we can hardly blame the system for it.
Sure, in PHB there can be "suggested" scores for each class, but unless we all play with premade characters, players are free to make (bad) choices.

 

[Maxperson]

I agree,
but one is unavoidable system imbalance(rolls) and other is player choice or better said incompetence.

It's unavoidable no matter what. Unless all stats are placed identically, and the players pick the same race, class and subclass. Then it will be balanced. Having 4 clones isn't going to be much fun, though. As soon as you introduce the first variation, balance is gone.

5e is designed to handle both stat rolling and point buy, which means that stats ranging from 3-20 don't break or even stretch the game.

 

[Horwath]

It's unavoidable no matter what. Unless all stats are placed identically, and the players pick the same race, class and subclass. Then it will be balanced. Having 4 clones isn't going to be much fun, though. As soon as you introduce the first variation, balance is gone.

5e is designed to handle both stat rolling and point buy, which means that stats ranging from 3-20 don't break or even stretch the game.

there will always be some imbalance, but do we really need to throw any hope of somewhat balanced game right out the window with step 1 of character creation?

yes, the game can be played with any method of ability score generation, but there is playable and then there is playable.

in some campaigns high charisma will be more valuable than high intelligence or strength, but every campaign should be made with all scores being challenged somewhat equally.

you can try to make a game where half your party has 14,12,12,10,10,8 array and half 18,16,16,14,14,14 and over whole campaign say that both will have same effect in the gameplay.

 

[Maxperson]

there will always be some imbalance, but do we really need to throw any hope of somewhat balanced game right out the window with step 1 of character creation?

You don't. Stats in 5e don't mean a whole heck of a lot. Play a PC with straight 18's and you won't break the game or even stretch it. Class abilities have far greater impact.

yes, the game can be played with any method of ability score generation, but there is playable and then there is playable.

It's 100% fact that the game is just as playable by rolling as array. Too many tables have extremely playable rolled stats for it to be otherwise. That leaves just preference.

While the game is just as playable with both rolled stats and array, your personal preference might alter that for you. If that happens don't roll characters. For ME, using arrays makes the game personally unplayable. It's a deal breaker and I won't do it as a general rule.

in some campaigns high charisma will be more valuable than high intelligence or strength, but every campaign should be made with all scores being challenged somewhat equally.

None of that changes that the stats are just plain mechanically unequal. Even if you challenge them somewhat equally, it will still be unbalanced because certain stats are just better than others.

you can try to make a game where half your party has 14,12,12,10,10,8 array and half 18,16,16,14,14,14 and over whole campaign say that both will have same effect in the gameplay.

Yes. Or more accurately, the stats don't matter much with how a character affects gameplay. Give the latter half to newbies and the former to expert players and you will see that. And that doesn't even take into account that roleplaying has an even greater impact.

What you do with your character is far more important than having good stats.

 

[Horwath]

None of that changes that the stats are just plain mechanically unequal. Even if you challenge them somewhat equally, it will still be unbalanced because certain stats are just better than others.

this I agree and it needs to get addressed, but completely another topic.

Yes. Or more accurately, the stats don't matter much with how a character affects gameplay. Give the latter half to newbies and the former to expert players and you will see that. And that doesn't even take into account that roleplaying has an even greater impact.

What you do with your character is far more important than having good stats.

ofc, that how you play is most important, but comparison like this demands players of same skill level.

just take the simplest example:

18 str, longsword, 1d8+4 damage 60% hit chance vs 14 STR, 1d8+2, 50% hit chance.
5,33 damage per hit vs. 3,48 damage per hit. That is 53% more damage, that is not a minor difference.
It may not get noticed in one encounter, but in 50 of them, over a campaign? It will matter a lot, and if running published adventures, you will need to adapt a lot, depending how much PCs are above or under expected power curve.

 

[Maxperson]

this I agree and it needs to get addressed, but completely another topic.

ofc, that how you play is most important, but comparison like this demands players of same skill level.

just take the simplest example:

18 str, longsword, 1d8+4 damage 60% hit chance vs 14 STR, 1d8+2, 50% hit chance.
5,33 damage per hit vs. 3,48 damage per hit. That is 53% more damage, that is not a minor difference.

Not only is it minor, it's not even noticeable when you are hitting a monster with 150 hit points. 2 points more damage in a game that is balanced around resource attrition and hit point bloat. That's like telling someone that they have a 53% greater chance of a heart attack. The percentage seems impressive, but it's an extremely deceptive number. The odds are still extremely low and haven't really moved much.

It may not get noticed in one encounter, but in 50 of them, over a campaign? It will matter a lot, and if running published adventures, you will need to adapt a lot, depending how much PCs are above or under expected power curve.

No. No it won't. You could get 1000 extra points of damage over the campaign, but when it's only a couple points per monster that has next to no bearing on any given fight, it's nothing. That extra 1000 points only makes a real difference if you can save it up and just kill a dragon or two with it.

 

[TwoSix]

You don't. Stats in 5e don't mean a whole heck of a lot. Play a PC with straight 18's and you won't break the game or even stretch it. Class abilities have far greater impact.

That does lead to the question of WHY do we put so much weight and consideration on these stat generation methods, when they ultimately don't matter that much.

 

[Maxperson]

That does lead to the question of WHY do we put so much weight and consideration on these stat generation methods, when they ultimately don't matter that much.

Pure preference. We like what we like. That's the main reason that both methods should continue to be default.

 

[Parmandur]

That does lead to the question of WHY do we put so much weight and consideration on these stat generation methods, when they ultimately don't matter that much.

Precisely the point. There isn't any reason beyond vibes. And vibes do matter for a game.