How do you tell a fellow player he can't pick a particular feat for his PC?

[InVinoVeritas]

Hey, cool, there you are, Driddle.

Could you give us more background on what the wizard has done or not done with the feat, and would you be able to find out more about his motives behind the Acrobatic feat? That would be key in figuring out what the guy wants to do and why.

Or, at least, could you mention what you would like the wizard to take instead, and why? That would really help in this discussion.

 

[Barak]

Also, could you tell us whose advice you plan on following? If it's mine, I'll give you a virtual dollar!

 

[Fishbone]

Speaking as somebody who doesn't "powergame" but can be counted on to bring a competent character to the table I have to say this sort of behavior really infuriates me.
Why does gimping yourself equal "flavor" to some people? Flavor does not have to be tied to mechanics. There are numerous spells like Climb that can help a wizard be acrobatic. There are items that give bonuses to skills. There are a whole host of things that can be picked out that don't squander something as precious as a feat. Don't players owe it to their fellow players to not make deliberately sucky choices? To not put the other people's PCs lives at risk? Some things are objectively better than others. Period.

 

[InVinoVeritas]

Speaking as somebody who doesn't "powergame" but can be counted on to bring a competent character to the table I have to say this sort of behavior really infuriates me.
Why does gimping yourself equal "flavor" to some people? Flavor does not have to be tied to mechanics. There are numerous spells like Climb that can help a wizard be acrobatic. There are items that give bonuses to skills. There are a whole host of things that can be picked out that don't squander something as precious as a feat. Don't players owe it to their fellow players to not make deliberately sucky choices? To not put the other people's PCs lives at risk? Some things are objectively better than others. Period.

My challenge remains: Prove it.

I still posit that effectiveness is in the use of a feat (or anything, really) and not in just the picking of it. Choosing something nonstandard for "flavor" doesn't make it a bad decision. Not using it in an effective way afterward makes it a bad decision.

 

[The_Universe]

As a GM/DM, I advise my players on the ramifications of their feat, skill, adn equpiment choices all the time, but I never make demands. I certainly wouldn't want rangers to make orcs one of his or her favored enemies if I had no intention of including orcs in the campaign. I let players know that I plan to have a lot of swashbuckling adventure on the high seas before they take Heavy Armor Proficiency. If the game is going to be exclusively city based, it's usually worth warning a player before they put ranks in Knowledge: Nature. Although I always try to notify players that those choices are less than optimal, I'd never demand that they take something else.

 

[Barak]

My challenge remains: Prove it.

I still posit that effectiveness is in the use of a feat (or anything, really) and not in just the picking of it. Choosing something nonstandard for "flavor" doesn't make it a bad decision. Not using it in an effective way afterward makes it a bad decision.

Prove what? That some feats are better than other under some circumstances?

Give me one occasion in which Skill Focus (craft (basket weaving)) is better than Weapon Specialization for a 6th Level Fighter that didn't previously pick up his favored weapon's specialization. And no, the national basket weaving contest doesn't work, I mean in the context of a campaign that can be called typical.

Heck, for giggles, let's add that said fighter only has one skill point in Craft (basket weaving)

 

[Fishbone]

Really, do we really need to sit around and ask if Acrobatic might be a little substandard for a Wizard? Really? Instead of the wizard having your back with something Combat Casting you'd rather have the party wizard be marginally better at Tumble and Jump? Considering that later on he can learn a spell or get a wand or magic item of the spell Jump and get bonuses anywhere from 5 to 15 times as large as the feat Acrobatic why blow that feat? See, this isn't optimization, this is common bloody sense! How does a wizard become a skill monkey type character? He uses his smarts and his spells and his natural Dexterity and magical equipment to do it. Come on, this character could be able to fly in 3 levels!

 

[Drowbane]

We looked askance at our party wizard (player) when he picked Animal Affinity for one of his 1st level feats. Gave him the benefit of the doubt, however, figuring maybe he had some concept planned to make best use of a +2 to his ride and handle animal checks. But nope. Hasn't even put a full five ranks in the latter to get a synergy bonus!

As he approaches third level, now he's talking about taking the Acrobatic feat. Not a darned good reason for it, as far as I can tell. He's not a jumper or tumbler -- he's a frippin' mage! Another feat thrown to the wind when he should be picking something spell related to help the team.

He's obviously intent on wasting feats on a badly planned character. What's the best way to tell him it won't be allowed?

....

Congrats, ya hit a...

6.5 on the Troll-o-matic

 

[Crothian]

Heck, for giggles, let's add that said fighter only has one skill point in Craft (basket weaving)

Well, since you choose the one fighter has one rank in the skill, I'll give him an 18 in Int and make him human soi it doesn't seem like a wasted feat.

The fighter with weapon specialization we'll make a halfling with a 1 strength.



Not all feats are equal, I think everyone agrees on that. But a clever player can find a way to make a weaker feat useful. And it can also really add an additional dimension to the character. Of course in a campaign that doesn't appriciate added dimensions this is all pointless.

 

[InVinoVeritas]

Prove what? That some feats are better than other under some circumstances?

Give me one occasion in which Skill Focus (craft (basket weaving)) is better than Weapon Specialization for a 6th Level Fighter that didn't previously pick up his favored weapon's specialization. And no, the national basket weaving contest doesn't work, I mean in the context of a campaign that can be called typical.

Heck, for giggles, let's add that said fighter only has one skill point in Craft (basket weaving)

It doesn't change a thing. The choice of the feat is not the point at which it becomes a bad choice, but in the execution of the feat.

So, if you choose SF: Basketweaving, that signals that you want to weave baskets pretty darn often. Probably more often than you fight. If you end up taking a star role in weaving baskets, then awesome, the feat was a good choice. If you end up taking a star role in fighting, then no, it's a bad choice.

My SF: Gemcutting example above is what I'm talking about. It didn't help in combat. However, I maximized party treasure through the use of the feat. To say that the feat was a suboptimal choice is shortsighted, even though it may appear to be so on the surface.

So, if the fighter can make the basketweaving work out well for the party--perhaps the party has a contract to deliver a shipment of baskets, and some of them have rotted through, for example--then it's a good choice.

It's not the choice of the feat, but what you do with it that matters.