How do you tell a fellow player he can't pick a particular feat for his PC?
- Thread starter Driddle
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(Taking everything at face value)
Here's what I'd do if someone wanted to play Circus Boy Mage, trained to handle animals and perform on the trapeze...
I'd find a way to make the character fun for the player, and as viable as any other PC, if at all possible.
Heck, I'm the DM. I have limitless resources. And really, the resource I need is a steady supple of "other player's goodwill". Plus, I like a good challenge. Frankly, the whole "every member of the squad's got to pull their own weight" mentality is fine...when you're actually in a squad of soldiers.
When you're playing an essentially non-competetive game its just silly.
Here's what I'd do if someone wanted to play Circus Boy Mage, trained to handle animals and perform on the trapeze...
I'd find a way to make the character fun for the player, and as viable as any other PC, if at all possible.
Heck, I'm the DM. I have limitless resources. And really, the resource I need is a steady supple of "other player's goodwill". Plus, I like a good challenge. Frankly, the whole "every member of the squad's got to pull their own weight" mentality is fine...when you're actually in a squad of soldiers.
When you're playing an essentially non-competetive game its just silly.
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Festivus
First Post
Driddle said:
I never pick feats based on what would maximize my character, I always pick them based upon what fits the characters experiences/personality. Of course, I am always open to suggestions, but outlawing a feat because the group says so would probably result in my walking out of the game.
InVinoVeritas
Adventurer
Don't assume his choices are suboptimal. How a person uses the tools he has matters far more than the specific tools themselves.
For example, my first 3e character was a gnome rogue/illusionist whose first feat was Skill Focus: Craft (Gemcutting). Suboptimal? In combat, sure. There were plenty times I wish I'd taken Point Blank Shot instead. However, outside of combat, my PC became an awesome financier. He'd regularly figure out how to get the best price out of the treasure horde, could make any gems and jewelry worth more without much risk, and created fake magical artifacts regularly and to great effect from an RP standpoint. The rest of the party loved the way he could squeeze every last copper out of any transaction and any loot. (Another "suboptimal" choice, Nystul's Magic Aura, was vital to making this work.)
Then, he got Craft Wondrous Item. Suddenly, he was making half of everything he ever needed for pretty much anything. He started turning loot into power-ups. He might not have ruled combat, but he ruled downtime.
The point is, don't assume that a nonstandard choice is suboptimal. He may have very valid reasons for his feat choices, and you might not yet understand or appreciate the value. After all, since Handle Animal, Ride, Jump, and Tumble are all cross-class for wizards, Animal Affinity and Acrobatic are the equivalent of 8 skill points each!
That said, if you're concerned about his feat choices, it's okay to want to learn more. If he's got a good strategy that you haven't seen, it would be good to figure it out.
On the other hand, if he's new to the game, he might not understand how the feats work. Animal Affinity? Awesome! I can raise dragon pets now! Acrobatic? Keen! Watch me get all Matrix-y! Alternately, he might think that the bonuses he receives add to his ranks for the purposes of synergy. If his feat choices aren't giving him what he's looking for, then definitely, it's okay to point that out to him. If, for example, he wants a dragon pet, then help him figure out a way to get one. If he sees himself as an awesome tumbling spellcaster, help him figure out how to make that. However, the fact is, neither one of these design choices are bad. Unexpected, perhaps, but not foolish.
By the way, what is an "optimal feat choice" for a wizard, anyway? Metamagic sucks rocks at low levels. Many magic item creation feats are out of reach. The ever-so-commonly-suggested Toughness is, in my opinion, a waste.
In the end, don't assume his choices are suboptimal. (Yes, I said that three times. It's that important.) Figure out what he wants to make, and help him make that. Then, figure out how his unique skill set helps you and the party. I guarantee you, there is a way. Finally, remember that how you use the tools you have is far more important that exactly which tools you have. If you can't use a friendly wizard who's good with horses and tumbling... that's your problem, not his.
Myself, I'd figure out how to get this guy a group of trained monkeys, so that he could vault himself into a hidden location and send out a troop of magically-enhanced creatures that could steal stuff and confuse the enemy.
Figure out what he wants. Make that rock.
For example, my first 3e character was a gnome rogue/illusionist whose first feat was Skill Focus: Craft (Gemcutting). Suboptimal? In combat, sure. There were plenty times I wish I'd taken Point Blank Shot instead. However, outside of combat, my PC became an awesome financier. He'd regularly figure out how to get the best price out of the treasure horde, could make any gems and jewelry worth more without much risk, and created fake magical artifacts regularly and to great effect from an RP standpoint. The rest of the party loved the way he could squeeze every last copper out of any transaction and any loot. (Another "suboptimal" choice, Nystul's Magic Aura, was vital to making this work.)
Then, he got Craft Wondrous Item. Suddenly, he was making half of everything he ever needed for pretty much anything. He started turning loot into power-ups. He might not have ruled combat, but he ruled downtime.
The point is, don't assume that a nonstandard choice is suboptimal. He may have very valid reasons for his feat choices, and you might not yet understand or appreciate the value. After all, since Handle Animal, Ride, Jump, and Tumble are all cross-class for wizards, Animal Affinity and Acrobatic are the equivalent of 8 skill points each!
That said, if you're concerned about his feat choices, it's okay to want to learn more. If he's got a good strategy that you haven't seen, it would be good to figure it out.
On the other hand, if he's new to the game, he might not understand how the feats work. Animal Affinity? Awesome! I can raise dragon pets now! Acrobatic? Keen! Watch me get all Matrix-y! Alternately, he might think that the bonuses he receives add to his ranks for the purposes of synergy. If his feat choices aren't giving him what he's looking for, then definitely, it's okay to point that out to him. If, for example, he wants a dragon pet, then help him figure out a way to get one. If he sees himself as an awesome tumbling spellcaster, help him figure out how to make that. However, the fact is, neither one of these design choices are bad. Unexpected, perhaps, but not foolish.
By the way, what is an "optimal feat choice" for a wizard, anyway? Metamagic sucks rocks at low levels. Many magic item creation feats are out of reach. The ever-so-commonly-suggested Toughness is, in my opinion, a waste.
In the end, don't assume his choices are suboptimal. (Yes, I said that three times. It's that important.) Figure out what he wants to make, and help him make that. Then, figure out how his unique skill set helps you and the party. I guarantee you, there is a way. Finally, remember that how you use the tools you have is far more important that exactly which tools you have. If you can't use a friendly wizard who's good with horses and tumbling... that's your problem, not his.
Myself, I'd figure out how to get this guy a group of trained monkeys, so that he could vault himself into a hidden location and send out a troop of magically-enhanced creatures that could steal stuff and confuse the enemy.
Figure out what he wants. Make that rock.
Haffrung Helleyes
First Post
The DM needs to ask the player why they want these feats. My guess is that, rather than them being necessary for entrance to some uber prestige class, they're being chosen mostly for flavor, or because the player in question doesn't realize how insignificant +2 to these two skills are.
If they're being chosen for flavor, what I would do if I were DM was bump up their power a bit. Give the guy with the handle animal feat a weaker animal companion -- maybe just a really tough dog that he raised, with no promise of a replacement if it dies.
Ken
If they're being chosen for flavor, what I would do if I were DM was bump up their power a bit. Give the guy with the handle animal feat a weaker animal companion -- maybe just a really tough dog that he raised, with no promise of a replacement if it dies.
Ken
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