D&D 4E How does 4E hold up on verisimilitude?

[robertliguori]

Would you have preferred "unbalanced"?

Imagine a circle of radius 1 centered on the origin. Imagine that the X axis represents "consistent and accurate world", and the Y axis represents "fun tactical game". If your sole measure of product is a fun tactical game, then you want products that are graphed close to 0,1. If you weigh game and world as about the same, then you want to maximize the area of your graph, and include decisions that maximize both the fun of the game and the consistency of the world. The result will be neither as versimilistic or as purely-gamist as a focused product, but people can like multiple things.

So, no, unbalanced is bad. What we want is as balanced and as consistent/logical as possible, with concessions to both.

 

[Knightlord]

Imagine a circle of radius 1 centered on the origin. Imagine that the X axis represents "consistent and accurate world", and the Y axis represents "fun tactical game". If your sole measure of product is a fun tactical game, then you want products that are graphed close to 0,1. If you weigh game and world as about the same, then you want to maximize the area of your graph, and include decisions that maximize both the fun of the game and the consistency of the world. The result will be neither as versimilistic or as purely-gamist as a focused product, but people can like multiple things.

So, no, unbalanced is bad. What we want is as balanced and as consistent/logical as possible, with concessions to both.

Ummm, not to be rude or snarky or anything, but how can a game that has all of the following (just to name a few)...

• Powerful, interventionist deities.
• Mighty, flying, energy-breathing dragons.
• Actually functioning spells.
• Magical items of power.
• Exotic "Common Races", such as Elves, Dwarves, and Dragonborn.

...be "logical"? I mean, its D&D. Not everything has to make sense, IMO. All it has to do is provide a fun setting for my friends and me to adventure in. So what if I can't do a power more than once a day? Maybe my character's tired. Or perhaps he doesn't realize such an opportunity was presented to him when he gained Combat Advantage. The point being, I'll find a way to roleplay an explanation, then get back to adventuring, or walking through town and talking to the populace, ect. I do not believe D&D is supposed to be heavy in "logic". Not to say logic and logical situations/standards don't exist, but one must remember that its a Fantasy world, not the real world, and its designed to be fun.

 

[Nail]

Why don't I lose hit points every time I'm turned down for a date?

This is sooooo quoatable, it has to be QFT again, this late in the thread.

 

[hong]

It's not that the 4E rules get in the way of my roleplaying realism or verisimilitude, it's that the 4E rules get in the way of my roleplaying fantasy. So, for me, it's not an argument of "verisimilitude" versus "fantasy"; it's an argument of "roleplaying game" versus "board game".

However, I'm also fine with D&D, and 4E D&D in particular, being more of a fantasy boardgame, and I'll probably play it with my gaming group with the same approach that we play Settlers of Catan or Robo Rally or Monopoly from time to time. In the case of 4E, we'll load up a ping pong table with dungeon tiles and have at it for 4 or 5 hours--but we'll have no more false presumptions about telling a story with it than we would with telling a story with Settlers.

On the other hand, when we want to play a roleplaying game and tell a story, we'll use something more like Chaosium's BRP.

The 5 stages of coping with an edition change:

Grief: I won't play 4E or buy the books.

Anger: I'll buy the books, but I won't play 4E.

Bargaining: I'll play a 4E one-shot, but not a campaign.

Depression: I'll play 4E, but I won't roleplay.

Acceptance: I love 4E with all of my body including my pee-pee.

 

[Keltheos]

I always thought 0-level meant 'boring' as in the "0" was the shape your mouth makes when you're yawning through something as dull as being a pre-classed dirt farming serf...

 

[Obryn]

I always thought 0-level meant 'boring' as in the "0" was the shape your mouth makes when you're yawning through something as dull as being a pre-classed dirt farming serf...

I can't believe you're ignoring the extremely popular 1979 D&D supplement, Carrots & Cabbages!

You play 0-level commoners, fighting against boll weevils and housecats. You die when a horde of three goblins invades. Its rules for tilling fields are still in use to this day!

-O

 

[Verdande]

Has anybody, other than a power-hungry DM, ever really had fun being a 0 level character? Anybody?


You mean carefully guarding your one, precious hit point while you flee from goblins and wait for a DMPC or two to come save you isn't what D&D is all about?

 

[Obryn]

Has anybody, other than a power-hungry DM, ever really had fun being a 0 level character? Anybody?


You mean carefully guarding your one, precious hit point while you flee from goblins and wait for a DMPC or two to come save you isn't what D&D is all about?

D&D is not very good at being grim & gritty without fairly extensive houseruling, or else severe clamping-down by the DM.

When I want to play blood & mud fantasy, I have WFRP - which does gritty fantasy better than any edition of D&D ever has.

-O

 

[AllisterH]

Um, if a human guard is 3rd level and a human bandit is a 2nd level monster, doesn't that indicate that humans in 4E are just plain tougher than before?

A regular human that's reasonably healthy should still have more HP than kobolds and goblins.

 

[SweeneyTodd]

It's not that the 4E rules get in the way of my roleplaying realism or verisimilitude, it's that the 4E rules get in the way of my roleplaying fantasy. So, for me, it's not an argument of "verisimilitude" versus "fantasy"; it's an argument of "roleplaying game" versus "board game"...

I was going to argue with you but then I realized you were right.

You didn't say "It's impossible to roleplay with the 4e rules" -- that's an insupportable statement without defining what exactly "roleplay" means, and that's a nasty can of worms. You said "My group and I find the 4e rules incompatible with how we roleplay", and that just means you've got a good grasp on how your group likes to do things.

When you have a square peg and a round hole, neither of them is wrong, but they're definately incompatible.