How does a chaotic society function?

[Thanee]

Many adventuring parties are small-scale chaotic societies, with no leader and no rules how to handle certain situations. Still they seem to function well enough.

Bye
Thanee

 

[NewJeffCTHome]

I think a chaotic society can function. I don't even think it has to be small. I think it can be a huge empire and still be chaotic. Maybe a society has such a Byzantine set of elaborate laws that are enforced at the whim of local governors, constables and whoever has power that it is really a chaotic mess that somehow works. A law that is enforced strictly in one province because the governor or Duke of that province thinks it should be enforced. However, the strictness of enforcement is generally proportional to the distance from the Duke’s castle or the governor’s residence.

Then, in another province or Dukedom in another part of the kingdom, this law is rarely enforced, except in a few isolated towns. However, in one section of the capital city of the province, this law is enforced ruthlessly due to a fanatical knight being in charge of that area. Everybody is afraid to challenge this knight because he is a war hero and (supposedly) a distant cousin to the king.

It would be lots of “who you know” types of deals – if you have the right connections with the right people you could be going places in one province or one fiefdom. However, that power could stop at the borders, or possible go further if you know the right people elsewhere.

In every country in the world, the “who you know” factor is important. However, in a chaotic society, it is much more important and also is more random.

 

[Trickstergod]

Would you do us all a big favor and just post a quick, totally unambiguous definition of Chaos and Law?

I've always been curious.

-- N

PS: Don't just dump in an SRD quote. If that wasn't ambiguous, we wouldn't be having this delightful chat.

Thank you very much, Nifft.

Though I will state that after reading this reply and Sebastian's, I went to go refresh my memory on what it has to say about law and chaos.

Having done so, I maintain my position in full. It's supported enough by the books to my satisfaction. My belief's do not exist independently of D&D's take on the matter, though my interpretation, of course, will differ from others. And that's what generally side-tracks a discussion; one persons interpretation and then someone elses.

 

[Silveras]

I think you need some basis for what law and chaos are for you to begin with.

For me, lawfulness is group-oriented, sacrificing some of the individual's benefits in favor of the community.

Conversely, chaos is more individual-oriented, sacrificing some of the communities benefits in favor of the individual.

I will agree with that; however, I think these are more illustrative examples:

A Lawful society is loyal to whomever is the King (selected according to tradition and custom). That happens to be a guy named Daniel at this time.

A Chaotic society is loyal to some person, a guy named Daniel in this case, and makes him King.

A Lawful society will expect/create a Minister or Department to be the authority on each thing, such as a Department of Cleanliness, that will hire appropriate persons to gather trash from the streets each day.

A Chaotic society will expect the people to create temporary organizations as needed to deal with situations, or handle it themselves, such as cleaning trash from outside their own houses.

As a corollary, members of a Lawful society will look for a representative of the appropriate organization when something needs to be addressed, and will wait for "the proper authorities" to deal with a problem. For example, in a Lawful society, the "proper" thing to do about a bar fight is to call the watch and let them deal with it. Members of a Chaotic society will generally NOT expect to have to wait for "the proper authorities" and will take action themselves. In such a case, the "proper" thing to do about a bar fight is to step in and break it up when it looks like it is getting out of hand.

 

[fusangite]

I've already completed dozens of posts this month on the subject of how law and chaos, as described in the rules, don't really function. One of the difficulties I find is that people come up with house rules to solve the bizarre inconsistencies of the actual rules and then claim their house rules are the actual rules. That's fine; if people want to pretend that their various ingenious fixes are the rules themselves, I don't think this thread will be harmed. If people want to read about the problems of law and chaos as actually spelled-out in the rules, flip a few pages back in the forums. And no, I don't believe that the rules' statement that alignment is not a script or straitjacket absolves the writers of all responsibility to produce alignment descriptions that actually cohere. Indeed, things open to interepretation deserve clearer descriptions, not less coherent ones.

Any chaotic evil NPC one makes, according to the rules, is severely handicapped from acting rationally in their own interest. I would suggest doing away with this; instead, focus on chaos as the NPCs' goal rather than as their method for getting through the day. Let people's goals, objectives and allies define their alignment.

 

[Pbartender]

A good real-world example of chaotic (whether Good, Neutral or Evil) communities would be the American frontier (way back at any time when we still had one).

Consider any of your stereotypical Old West boom towns. They are the epitomes of primarily Chaotic societies with an adventurer-based economy.

 

[Thanee]

Any chaotic evil NPC one makes, according to the rules, is severely handicapped from acting rationally in their own interest.

And where exactly in the rules does it say, that alignment forces a being to act in a certain way!?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Pbartender]

And where exactly in the rules does it say, that alignment forces a being to act in a certain way!?

Bye
Thanee

It doesn't really. From the SRD:

ALIGNMENT

A creature’s general moral and personal attitudes are represented by its alignment: lawful good, neutral good, chaotic good, lawful neutral, neutral, chaotic neutral, lawful evil, neutral evil, or chaotic evil.

Alignment is a tool for developing your character’s identity. It is not a straitjacket for restricting your character. Each alignment represents a broad range of personality types or personal philosophies, so two characters of the same alignment can still be quite different from each other. In addition, few people are completely consistent.

 

[Umbran]

Why should that be?

If we have a purely chaotic society, then no laws are needed to ensure individual rights, since every citizen will respect every others individual rights, since every citizen will have the same moral standards, which emphasize individual rights, not just your own, but every individual's. Chaotic is not egoistic.

A purely chaotic society is therefore the ideal mature community, where no regulations are necessary, because everyone gets along well without them.

One example of the above might be true Communism. Not the totalitarian version we've seen on Earth, but as it was written in theory. No government, no ownership, and everybody works together in peace because they each see the goodness in that.

 

[Gez]

My interpretation of Law and Chaos is about the same as TricksterGod's.

Lawful is "communistic" while Chaotic is individualistic.

The "laissez-faire" economic model (just leave anyone do what they want to do -- if they can afford to do it, that is) is utterly Chaotic. On the other hand, the planned-five-years-in-advance, centralised, over-regulated and over-controlled economy of communist system is modronishly Lawful.

In addition to that, Law tends to seek stability -- up to the point of reactionnism -- while Chaos tends to seek change for change's sake.


That said, all these economicosociologicopoliticophilosophical considerations can be securely ignored in a "smash-the-doors, kill-the-monster, loot-the-treasure" campaign. There, alignment is much simpler:

• Evil: Attacks the PCs.
• Good: Chats with the PCs and give them stuff (hints, services, or goodies), may ask for something in exchange.
• Chaotic: If evil, charges toward the PCs without thinking, medium Morale check.
• Lawful: If evil, uses tactics and traps to attack the PCs, high Morale check as long as the warband leader lives, low Morale check if the leader is killed.