How does Advancement really work?

[Spatula]

My problem is that I wanted to create a large worg of human intelligence, so I sat down and read the rules for anvancement. Here are some things I didn't come across that I wish I had:

• Challenge Rating: How do I normally determine the CR of an advanced creature? Is it the originally HD multiplied with 1 + a tenth of the added HD?

The MM tells you to keep it the same, which is obviously wrong - advanced creatures have more HD and possibly some impressive ability increases. At some point I saw a quick and dirty system from Wizards somewhere - maybe in the MM errata or in Sage Advice? But I would just make a guesstimate based on its new HD.

• Ability Increase: The text seems to only explain which ability scores increases/decreases when you alter their size category. I would like to know how I'm supposed to increase some of the other scores, INT for instance.

Just increase it, the rules in MM only cover how to increase the stats of a creature as it gets more HD. A larger Worg generally isn't any smarter than a reguler-sized one. Remember to adjust the creature's skill points based on its type, HD, and new INT score.

• New CR: How do I determine the CR of the creature with increased INT?

Unless its INT affected its abilities directly (like if it had Wizard levels), it shouldn't affect the CR.

• Class Levels: How can I give this creature some levels in of one of the PHB classes?

Tack'em on top of what the worg already has. It doesn't get the extra skill points that a normal first level character gets, but otherwise it's basically the same as adding a class level to a regular character.

Also, since you're designing this monster as a special NPC, remember that the ability scores in the monster description assume a base of all 10's or 11's - 10 STR, 10 DEX, 10 INT, etc. Don't hesitate to give your villain some real stats! And then apply the racial mods.

 

[Tom Cashel]

Am I missing something here?

Yes.

There is no need to Awaken a worg. They are intelligent, and it says in their MM description that some of them speak common and goblin. If it's a NPC, you can give it whatever INT score seems appropriate.

Advancement & class levels: as others have suggested.

Hope this helps.

 

[da chicken]

Re: Re: How does Advancement really work?

First, you can't awaken a Worg. It is a Magical Beast, and only Animals and trees (Plants) can be awakened (spell description).

Second, by the default rules, a Worg is not supposed gain any class levels. The stat block says, "Advancement: 5-6 HD (Medium-size); 7-12 HD (Large)." The stat block needs to say, "Advancement: By character class," like Giants do in order for you to be able to advance them by class levels. Of course, you can easily ignore that, but classed creatures that also have HD advancement should be very rare.

 

[Pax]

Re: Re: Re: How does Advancement really work?

Second, by the default rules, a Worg is not supposed gain any class levels. The stat block says, "Advancement: 5-6 HD (Medium-size); 7-12 HD (Large)." The stat block needs to say, "Advancement: By character class," like Giants do in order for you to be able to advance them by class levels. Of course, you can easily ignore that, but classed creatures that also have HD advancement should be very rare.

Anything that is sentient can have class levels; that entry merely means that only the exceptional ULTRA-rare few will have any class levels. I believe the DMG section on Monsters as PCs mentions this (classic example is a Unicorn ... perhaps as Sorceror or Paladin ... +14 Charisma ... heh!).

 

[Celebrim]

BIG BAD WOLF: Unique Advanced Fiendish Spirit Worg Rng4/Drd4: CR 17; Large Magical Beast; HD 12d12+4d10+4d8+100; hp 218; Init +6 (+2 Dex, +4 improved initiative); Spd Fly 50 ft. (perfect); AC: Ethereal,16 (-1 Size, +2 Dex, +5 natural) OR Manifested, 14 (-1 Size, +2 Dex, +3 deflection); Atk Bite +26 melee touch (1d8+10); Face/Reach: 5 ft. by 10 ft./5 ft.; SA Smite Good, Favored Enemy (Humans), Trip, Spell Use; SQ Ethereal, Druid Abilities, Darkvision, Cold & Fire Resistance 20, DR 10/+3, SR 25, Scent; AL NE; SV Fort +20, Ref +12, Will +12; Str 25, Dex 14, Con 20, Int 8, Wis 16, Cha 16.
Skills and Feats: Animal Empathy +11, Concentration +8, Hide +19, Listen +20, Knowledge (Nature) +3, Move Silently +11, Search +7, Spot +18, Wilderness Lore +7*; Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Improved Critical (Bite), Improved Initiative, Power Attack
Spells (Druid): 0th Cure Minor Wounds (x2), Purify Food and Drink, Guidance (x2) 1st Cure Light Wounds, Detect Snares and Pits, Endure Elements, Invisibility to Animals 2nd Charm Person or Animal, Delay Poison, Hold Animal
Spells (Ranger): 1st Magic Fang

Smite Good (Su): Once per day the BIG BAD WOLF can make a normal attack to deal additional +20 damage against a good foe.
Trip (Ex): A worg that hits with a bite attack can attempt to trip the opponent as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the worg.
Manifesting (Su): As an ethereal creatures, the spirit worg cannot affect or be affected by anything in the material world. When they manifest, spirit worgs become visible but remain incorporeal. However, a manifested spirit worg can strike with its bite attack or a ghost touch weapon. A manifested spirit worg remains on the Ethereal Plane but can be attacked by opponents on both the Material and Ethereal planes. When a spellcasting spirit worg is on the Ethereal Plane, its spells cannot affect targets on the Material Plane, but they work normally against ethereal targets. When a spellcasting spirit worg manifests, its spells continue to affect ethereal targets and can affect targets on the Material Plane normally unless the spells rely on touch. A manifested ghost’s touch spells don’t work on material targets.
Rejuvenation (Su): In most cases, it’s difficult to destroy a spirit worg through simple combat: The "destroyed" spirit will often restore itself in 2d4 days. Even the most powerful spells are often only temporary solutions. A spirit worg that would otherwise be destroyed returns to its old haunts with a successful level check (1d20 + spirit’s level or HD) against DC 16. As a rule, the only way to get rid of a spirit worg for sure is to determine the reason for its existence and set right whatever prevents it from resting in peace. The exact means varies with each spirit and may require a good deal of research.
Skills: A spirit worg receives a +9 racial bonus to Listen and Spot checks, a +1 racial bonus to Move Silently checks, a +8 racial bonus to Search checks, and a +10 racial bonus to Hide checks. A worg has a +4 racial bonus to Wilderness Lore checks when tracking by scent.

The point of this post being that the advancement rules are tools not restrictions. Go wild and do whatever you feel is cool.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

If you follow the ability score of the humanoids, you will notice that they are all created with 15-point buy, with 2 or 3 points per ability score (even numbers got 2 points).

To improve some ability scores (say, Intelligence), add some of the missing points to the scores. (If you use point-buy for character creation, figuring what is "missing" becomes easy, if you used a roll-method, you could use the average of the players or the average that can be rolled. I recommend using at least 25 point buy).
This probably doesn't change the CR in any way (if the creature has a CR equal or above 1, otherwise, you might increase it by 1 step).

If you add Class Levels, the new CR would probably be: "Old CR + Level". If you add HD, you could use the given Guidelines, but if you don't think that will work, try to compare the benefits of classes with the creature types HD, and estimate an "effective Class Level per HD" .

Probably Outsider, Dragon and Magical Beast come nearest to a HD = level. The rest will vary between a third (Undead as an example) and two third.

Mustrum Ridcully

 

[Targos]

If you follow the ability score of the humanoids, you will notice that they are all created with 15-point buy, with 2 or 3 points per ability score (even numbers got 2 points).



I assume you're referring to the NPC charts in the DMG. Those are considered elite and use the default array (15,14,13,12,10,8) and get max HP at level 1. The MM uses average stats (10s&11s) and then have racial modifiers applied. Like already stated, you can give the worg whatever stats you want, but it has a -4 racial modifier to intelligence. (That would be cancelled out by the half-fiend bonus.)

 

[Kroax]

If you follow the ability score of the humanoids, you will notice that they are all created with 15-point buy, with 2 or 3 points per ability score (even numbers got 2 points).



I assume you're referring to the NPC charts in the DMG. Those are considered elite and use the default array (15,14,13,12,10,8) and get max HP at level 1. The MM uses average stats (10s&11s) and then have racial modifiers applied. Like already stated, you can give the worg whatever stats you want, but it has a -4 racial modifier to intelligence. (That would be cancelled out by the half-fiend bonus.)

Actually, I noted if you take the worgs stats (gaining 1 oint for every point below zero) and add 1 to strength (4 HD) they use 32 point buy.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Why 32? Do you start with an 8 as Base Score? I don't think that is the "Base Stat" of a Worg, they have racial adjustments, like most other species. (Maybe the -4 to INT, I didn't check the critter)

When I talked from the Humanoids, I spoke from the versions in the Monster Manual, not from the DMG. Most Humanoids are Warrior1 using 15 point-buy (at least effectively, even if it is not actually stated in the stat block. The points are distributed evenly, effectively the average result of a 3d6 roll method)
The DMG "elite" NPCs are using the standard array, which is, as far as I know, based on the 25 point buy system, which is based on average roll/point buy cost results with the 4d6 drop lowest method.

Mustrum Ridcully

 

[Kroax]

Ok, with the tips and help here I've come up with the following:

Radusk
Half-Fiend/Half-Worg
Large-Size Outsider (Chaotic, Evil)
Magical beast 7, Rouge 1
Hit Dice: 7d10+1d6+48
Initiative: +5 (Dex)
Speed: 50 ft.
AC: 18
Attacks: 2 claws +18/13 melee; or bite + 18/13
Damage: Claw 1d6+12; 1d8+12
Face/Reach: 5 ft. by 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities, Sneak Attack
Special Qualities: Poison immunity; acid, cold and fire resistance 20
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +12, Will +4
Abilities: Stre 34, Dex 20, Con 22, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 14
Skills: Yet undecided
Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Scent

What CR would you rate this critter at?

[Edit: Forgot rouge class level]