How does Advancement really work?

[MerakSpielman]

If you follow the ability score of the humanoids, you will notice that they are all created with 15-point buy, with 2 or 3 points per ability score (even numbers got 2 points).



I assume you're referring to the NPC charts in the DMG. Those are considered elite and use the default array (15,14,13,12,10,8) and get max HP at level 1. The MM uses average stats (10s&11s) and then have racial modifiers applied. Like already stated, you can give the worg whatever stats you want, but it has a -4 racial modifier to intelligence. (That would be cancelled out by the half-fiend bonus.)

I thought he was referring to the stat blocks for humanoids in the MM. Those list the average scores for that race. A human would be 10 10 10 10 10 10, reflecting that they get no bonuses or penalties to their scores at all.
To roll up scores for a monster in the monster manual, assuming you don't want an "average" specimin, you roll them just like you had your PCs roll. If the monster's "average" score was 12, 14, 16, or 18 (etc) you add 2, 4, 6, or 8 (etc) to the roll. If it was 8, 6, or 4 you subrtact 2, 4, or 6 (Min 3 for most monsters).

 

[Spatula]

Attacks: 2 claws +18/13 melee; or bite + 18/13

You normally don't get iterative attacks with natural weapons... I don't think the Rogue level changes that.

Damage: Claw 1d6+12; 1d8+12

The worg gets STR*1/2 damage bonus to its bite attack, so that should be 1d8+18.

What CR would you rate this critter at?

A normal 4 HD Worg is CR 2, you added 3 HD (with a size increase) and a +2 CR template and 1 class level, so at the very least it should be CR 9-10. I'd say that looks about right.

 

[Benben]

• Challenge Rating: Increasing intelligence is important, but class levels will overlap with this. Take the base worg CR then add it's class levels to determine its total CR.
  
• Ability Increase: I would recommend rolling stats for the worg, just like you would an important NPC. Stat adjustments for the worg are: Str +6, Dex +4, Con+4, Int -4, Wis +4
  
• New CR: How do I determine the CR of the creature with increased INT?
  
• Class Levels: I would recommend downloading http://pcgen.sourceforge.net to add class levels for the Worg.

 

[Celebrim]

"Radusk
Half-Fiend/Half-Worg
Large-Size Outsider (Chaotic, Evil)
Magical beast 7, Rouge 1
Hit Dice: 7d10+1d6+48
Initiative: +5 (Dex)
Speed: 50 ft.
AC: 18
Attacks: 2 claws +18/13 melee; or bite + 18/13
Damage: Claw 1d6+12; 1d8+12
Face/Reach: 5 ft. by 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities, Sneak Attack
Special Qualities: Poison immunity; acid, cold and fire resistance 20
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +12, Will +4
Abilities: Str 34, Dex 20, Con 22, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 14
Skills: Yet undecided
Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Scent"

Cool. A spell casting worg could be a fun villian.

Just a few minor problems.

AC is miscalculated too low for the Dex given. Actual AC should be:

10 (base) + 5 (dex) + 3 (increase to size large) + 1 (half-fiend) + 2 (base armor for worg) - 1 (size large) = 20

The attacks line should read:

Attacks: 1 bite +18 melee or 1 bite +18 melee, 2 claws +13 melee.

Gaining claw attacks does not change the primary attack of the Worg to claws (unless you really want it to). Generally speaking, monsters can make one melee attack with each of thier natural weapons, although they do not get iterative attacks with them (normally, slams are usually an exception). One of those attack forms is primary (in this case the bite). The others are secondary, and at -5 to hit unless the creature has multi-attack. Not that with a claw attack, you get one attack with each claw. 2 claws +13 melee means two attacks doing claw damage each at +13 bonus to the attack roll. You wouldn't normally have +2 claws +13/+8 melee, and in any event that notation means 4 attacks and not two - two at +13 and two at +8.

Note that the Worg still has to make a full attack action to get more than one attack per round.

The damage line should read:

Damage: bite (1d8+18) or bite (1d8+12), claw (1d6+6)

The reason? For a primary single attack from a natural weapon(like a Worg's bite before it gets claws), the damage bonus is 1 1/2 times the strength bonus. For secondary attacks, like this wolf's fiendish claws, damage is 1/2 the strength bonus.

Special Attacks should list the Worgs extraordinary Trip ability.

I'd put the CR at 8.

CR: 2 (Base CR of Worg) + 2 (double normal HD, usually works for HD in mid ranges) + 1 (size increase) + 2 (half-fiend template) + 1 (1 level of a combat effective class) = 8

An 8th level party should mow down something (in probably 2.5 rounds) with this low of h.p. and few defences (no SR, no DR) unless you play it right.

EDIT: Doh!

To keep it alive, use darkness to disorient the party, and make grapple attacks (even if it means provoking AoO) to take advantage of your godlike strength (!!). Run whenever you don't have the advantage. Your standard grapple check should do bite damage (!!!). Use the Poison spell to weaken party health over time, and your manueverability to hit a party where (and when) it is weak. Played smart from a position of good ambush, the XP award deserves circumstance bonus. Allowed to be cut down with arrows and disabling spells (Will save) by a party who won the initiative, and you won't even think it worth CR 8.

You do realize how much you increased the Worg's attributes right?

Normal strength for a large half-fiend Worg = 29
Normal dexterity for a large half-fiend Worg = 17
Normal constitution for a large half-fiend Worg = 21
Normal intelligence for a large half-fiend Worg = 10
Normal wisdom for a large half-fiend Worg = 14
Normal charisma for a large half-fiend Worg = 12

So this is really the equivalent of a human with STR 15, DEX 13, CON 11, INT 14, WIS 10, CHR 12. If that is what you were going for, great. If not, the average stats are already quite good. I wouldn't say that the stats are quite worth a CR increase, because you didn't give the wolf wings (from the Half-Fiend template), and class levels usually aren't quite worth (in actuality) a straight 1 for 1 increase in CR unless you increase stats, add magic items, and do other things to match PC advancement.

 

[Spatula]

You do realize how much you increased the Worg's attributes right?

Normal strength for a large half-fiend Worg = 29
Normal dexterity for a large half-fiend Worg = 17
Normal constitution for a large half-fiend Worg = 21
Normal intelligence for a large half-fiend Worg = 10
Normal wisdom for a large half-fiend Worg = 14
Normal charisma for a large half-fiend Worg = 12

So this is really the equivalent of a human with STR 15, DEX 13, CON 11, INT 14, WIS 10, CHR 12.

16, 14, 12, 14, 10, 12 actually, since racial mods are always even numbers if you go by the DMG's guidelines.

An 8th level party should mow down something (in probably 2.5 rounds) with this low of h.p. and few defences (no SR, no immunities or resistances, no DR)

SRD: "Half-fiends are immune to poison, and have acid, cold, electricity, and fire resistance 20." Which is actually in Kroax's writeup. Kinda strange that half-fiends don't get DR when fiendish creatures do, though.

 

[Celebrim]

"SRD: "Half-fiends are immune to poison, and have acid, cold, electricity, and fire resistance 20." Which is actually in Kroax's writeup. Kinda strange that half-fiends don't get DR when fiendish creatures do, though."

Doh! I knew that. Blame it on it being late. Yeah, that's it. It was late.

 

[Kroax]

Cool. A spell casting worg could be a fun villian.

Yeah, I'm thinking on giving him some spellcasting levels later on, but I'll settle for this now or I'll kill my player in an instant. I'd rather like to kill the slowly.

Just a few minor problems.

AC is miscalculated too low for the Dex given. Actual AC should be:

10 (base) + 5 (dex) + 3 (increase to size large) + 1 (half-fiend) + 2 (base armor for worg) - 1 (size large) = 20

The attacks line should read:

Attacks: 1 bite +18 melee or 1 bite +18 melee, 2 claws +13 melee.

Gaining claw attacks does not change the primary attack of the Worg to claws (unless you really want it to). Generally speaking, monsters can make one melee attack with each of thier natural weapons, although they do not get iterative attacks with them (normally, slams are usually an exception). One of those attack forms is primary (in this case the bite). The others are secondary, and at -5 to hit unless the creature has multi-attack. Not that with a claw attack, you get one attack with each claw. 2 claws +13 melee means two attacks doing claw damage each at +13 bonus to the attack roll. You wouldn't normally have +2 claws +13/+8 melee, and in any event that notation means 4 attacks and not two - two at +13 and two at +8.

Note that the Worg still has to make a full attack action to get more than one attack per round.

The damage line should read:

Damage: bite (1d8+18) or bite (1d8+12), claw (1d6+6)

The reason? For a primary single attack from a natural weapon(like a Worg's bite before it gets claws), the damage bonus is 1 1/2 times the strength bonus. For secondary attacks, like this wolf's fiendish claws, damage is 1/2 the strength bonus.

Special Attacks should list the Worgs extraordinary Trip ability.

I expected to see some of this. This is the first monster ever
that I've created/modified, so I learned much from this. I've only been a DM for about two months.

But minor things like the miscalculated AC is a product of that I created him on 15 minutes last night because I need him ready to tomorrow (in 2 days when I first posted him).

I posted him without reading it to closely, so I'll probably also give him some magical items of some sort too, like infusions. (MotW)

I'd put the CR at 8.

CR: 2 (Base CR of Worg) + 2 (double normal HD, usually works for HD in mid ranges) + 1 (size increase) + 2 (half-fiend template) + 1 (1 level of a combat effective class) = 8

An 8th level party should mow down something (in probably 2.5 rounds) with this low of h.p. and few defences (no SR, no DR) unless you play it right.

Sound reasonable. But, as I added earlier, I'm probably going to give him some magical items or stuff.

EDIT: Doh!

To keep it alive, use darkness to disorient the party, and make grapple attacks (even if it means provoking AoO) to take advantage of your godlike strength (!!). Run whenever you don't have the advantage. Your standard grapple check should do bite damage (!!!). Use the Poison spell to weaken party health over time, and your manueverability to hit a party where (and when) it is weak. Played smart from a position of good ambush, the XP award deserves circumstance bonus. Allowed to be cut down with arrows and disabling spells (Will save) by a party who won the initiative, and you won't even think it worth CR 8.

Thanks for the tip!

You do realize how much you increased the Worg's attributes right?

Normal strength for a large half-fiend Worg = 29
Normal dexterity for a large half-fiend Worg = 17
Normal constitution for a large half-fiend Worg = 21
Normal intelligence for a large half-fiend Worg = 10
Normal wisdom for a large half-fiend Worg = 14
Normal charisma for a large half-fiend Worg = 12

So this is really the equivalent of a human with STR 15, DEX 13, CON 11, INT 14, WIS 10, CHR 12. If that is what you were going for, great. If not, the average stats are already quite good. I wouldn't say that the stats are quite worth a CR increase, because you didn't give the wolf wings (from the Half-Fiend template), and class levels usually aren't quite worth (in actuality) a straight 1 for 1 increase in CR unless you increase stats, add magic items, and do other things to match PC advancement.

I figured that because he's going to be a returning villian, I created him like if I had made a PC IMC, so I used 32 point buy.

Wow! This is great feedback! Thanks guys. Especially Celebrim.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Just one question:
Where can I find the "Rouge" Class? Is this in the new Slayer`s Guide to Females?

Mustrum Ridcully

 

[bret]

Considering the Worg works with some evil clerics and druids, you might think about giving him a magical item.

Something like a collar that gives Magic Fang, Barkskin, or Bracers of Armor (Mage Armor).

Any druid or ranger would be happy to have such an item for their Animal Buddy. Provided you don't put some limitation in there to prevent it, the group would find the item useful if they ever managed to defeat this villian.

Use the NPC chart for magic items to determine what sort of magical item he could afford.

 

[Kroax]

Just one question:
Where can I find the "Rouge" Class? Is this in the new Slayer`s Guide to Females?

Mustrum Ridcully

Uhm, I wasn't refering to that Rouge. This one is in the PHB.

You must be thinking of "Moulin Rouge", the french translation of Slayer's Guide to Windmills.

For those of you who doesn't understand french, "Moulin Rouge" means "The Red Windmill". Or at least that's what I heard...

I think it was the prestige class that gave you the "Infinite Spinning" ability. Or was it fly?