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How does Cooperative Spell Work?

How does Cooperative Spell work?

  • Two spells with same name are cast

    Votes: 20 43.5%
  • One spell is cast by two casters

    Votes: 26 56.5%

MerakSpielman

First Post
I always assumed it was intended to have a single spell go off, but more difficult to resist. There is preciedent for this in fantasy literature, and I assumed they were making a feat to mimic what you read about in books. For example, a wizard who violates the precepts of his order might be subject to a spell as a punishment, but his saves are astronomical. So the thirty or so members of the order combine their efforts to insure the spell takes hold.

As a DM, this seems like a fine feat for NPC wizards to have. But having one spell per wizard go off seems hideously overpowered. I create a cabal of wizards, for example, all with cooperative spell. The cabal can essentially cast spells that cannot be saved against or resisted. What seems more reasonable - to have one spell that cannot be resisted, or a hundred spells that cannot be resisted all going off at the same time?

As for the rather silly argument that the feat would have to have extra text about a person who chooses the target and effects of the spell... why on earth would you consider this necessary? All participants have agreed upon which spell to cast - was it necessary to have a single person chosen to do this? They've all agreed when they're going to cast the spell - also without a specific, chosen leader. Is it really THAT much of a stretch to assume they've also already discussed ahead the actual casting where to target it and what it's particular effects, if any, will be?

I think the real debate we're having is over the intent of the feat. Is it intended to be a minor boost for 2 multiclass casters in the same party - who will probably rarely be able to use it, and have used up a valuable feat slot? If this is how you envision it being used, perhaps having 2 spells go off isn't that unreasonable.

Or is it intended to make a large group of single-class casters able to cast individual spells with obscenely high saving throws? This situation makes a single spell much more reasonable. Can you imagine a Geas cast with a save DC of 150? Or a Mark of Justice?
 

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Cheiromancer

Adventurer
Li Shenron

You are right, the spells have to be cast at the same time. Delay spell doesn't help.


Merak,

Please don't call my argument silly. And if you create a cabal of 100 high level wizards, what chance will their opponents have with or without this feat?
 

MerakSpielman

First Post
Cheiromancer said:
Li Shenron

You are right, the spells have to be cast at the same time. Delay spell doesn't help.


Merak,

Please don't call my argument silly. And if you create a cabal of 100 high level wizards, what chance will their opponents have with or without this feat?
OK, imagine a cabal of only 20 wizards, of a mere 12th level, if that makes you feel better. I have a feeling a few Disintigrate spells with DCs of 50+ would make you agree that cooperative spell, in the hands of a wizardly organization, is a force to be reckened with.
 

Cheiromancer

Adventurer
MerakSpielman said:
OK, imagine a cabal of only 20 wizards, of a mere 12th level, if that makes you feel better. I have a feeling a few Disintigrate spells with DCs of 50+ would make you agree that cooperative spell, in the hands of a wizardly organization, is a force to be reckened with.

Dude. If my DM had a cabal of twenty wizards cooperatively cast disintegrate, I'd laugh at him. Cast cooperatively the disintegrate does 24d6 damage, assuming the target fails the save (which is a pretty safe assumption). Cast individually, the disintegrates do 100d6, assuming the target makes every save. And it's a fort save, so evasion doesn't help. Even if the target has mettle, he only has to fail his save once to take the 24d6. Using cooperative spell actually weakens the cabal.

Suppose they cooperatively cast charm monster at me. Well, I fail the save, and so I regard one wizard as a friend and ally (the one that you 1-spellers would call the designated controller). But that's the minimum that would happen if all 20 cast the spell individually, and I failed only on a 1. I'd fail 1 of the 20 rolls and so would regard one of the wizards as a friend and ally. If I failed on a 1 or a 2, then on average I'd be charmed by 2 of them, and the cooperative spell would be *less* effective than casting them individually.

Now, the power of cooperative spell increases the more spellcasters you have who have the feat and are cooperating. But a cabal of 20 casters can't be put together by anyone other than the DM. And if he uses the 1-spell interpretation he is, in most circumstances disadvantaging them. If the feat is a disadvantage even in the optimal circumstances, how could the 1-spell interpretation make it anything other than absurdly underpowered for PC use?

Now there are some circumstances where a cooperative spell (in the 1-spell interpretation) might be slightly more effective than not using it. That would be when SR and saves are both very high, and for some reason assay resistance and lower resistance can't be used. But I'd argue they are very rare circumstances.

You might argue that my interpretation (the n-spell interpretation) of the feat is way too powerful. The cabal is casting 20 disintegrates or 20 charm monsters, and nothing can resist it. They are an almost irresistible force (provided nobody casts an AoE spell on them).

Well, don't you think it is pointless to show that the DM can make a cabal of wizards that is nigh undefeatable? He's the DM; of course he can make NPC groups that are as tough as necessary. But a feat is not evaluated by what the DM can do with it; it is evaluated by what a PC can do with it. And a PC can't do much with it at all except in the n-spell interpretation.

Besides, the n-spell interpretation doesn't require you to add extra rules about designating a controller for the spell. It is closer to the text of the spell, and so should be the preferred reading.

Either of these arguments is, to me, sufficient; together they are so convincing that I can't understand why anyone would hold the contrary position.
 

MerakSpielman

First Post
Cheiromancer said:
Dude. If my DM had a cabal of twenty wizards cooperatively cast disintegrate, I'd laugh at him. Cast cooperatively the disintegrate does 24d6 damage, assuming the target fails the save (which is a pretty safe assumption). Cast individually, the disintegrates do 100d6, assuming the target makes every save. And it's a fort save, so evasion doesn't help. Even if the target has mettle, he only has to fail his save once to take the 24d6. Using cooperative spell actually weakens the cabal.

Not if you're taking the position that you get a number of spell effects equal to the number of wizards, eh? So you're saying 20 wizards should be able to cast 20 disintigrate spells, at a hightened DC and SR, with absolutley no penalty whatsoever for doing so? What wizard society wouldn't require every member to have this feat? What wizard society wouldn't recruit far and wide to swell their numbers, so that they could have the best Cooperative Spells available?

Now, the power of cooperative spell increases the more spellcasters you have who have the feat and are cooperating. But a cabal of 20 casters can't be put together by anyone other than the DM. And if he uses the 1-spell interpretation he is, in most circumstances disadvantaging them. If the feat is a disadvantage even in the optimal circumstances, how could the 1-spell interpretation make it anything other than absurdly underpowered for PC use?

What's your point here? It's absurd to think feats exist primarily for the use of PCs in an adventuring party. NPCs have access to the same feats, and can use them intelligently. So a cabal of wizards can cast Dominate Person or Scry and nobody has a chance to resist it. That's what Cooperative spell does - you just want them to be able to do it once per wizard.

You might argue that my interpretation (the n-spell interpretation) of the feat is way too powerful. The cabal is casting 20 disintegrates or 20 charm monsters, and nothing can resist it. They are an almost irresistible force (provided nobody casts an AoE spell on them).
Well, don't you think it is pointless to show that the DM can make a cabal of wizards that is nigh undefeatable? He's the DM; of course he can make NPC groups that are as tough as necessary. But a feat is not evaluated by what the DM can do with it; it is evaluated by what a PC can do with it. And a PC can't do much with it at all except in the n-spell interpretation.

Yes, your version is overpowered. In fact, not only is it overpowered, it's obscenely overpowered to the maximum limits of my somewhat expansive imagination. The mind boggles with horror at the implications of your interpretation. And you suggest it casually, saying "sure it's powerful, but the DM can keep it from getting out of control." Once a DM has to step in and make sure NPCs don't use a feat intelligently, it is clearly overpowered. Can you imagine what would happen if 20 wizards got together and decided that they could cast 20 spells at the same time, and each one would be impossible for anybody to resist? Can you even visualize what they could accomplish - being as they are, on average, twice as smart as most people you interact with on a daily basis? They'd be more than a force to be reckened with - the only thing that could conceviebly check their power would be a similar group with similar capabilities. Like the Mutually Assured Destruction theory of nuclear proliferation - both groups wouldn't dare let the other group become more powerful then themselves, and recruit like mad so that their cooperative spells would be able to compete with those of the other group. It would be chaos. And "the DM wouldn't let it get out of hand" is insufficient reason to allow something an abusable ability into the game.

It's not limited to wizards either. Imagine a temple of clerics casting Quest on people, or Mark of Justice. Can you imagine the social control they could obtain if they could make these spells both numerous and irresistable?

There is also considerable precident, in fantasy literature, for a group of casters to be able to pool their abilities into a single effect. In fact, it's almost a fantasy cliché: "Alone, we cannot defeat him... but perhaps if we joined hands, and tried it all together, our combined powers will get through..." I find it hard to believe people would not assume this feat was meant to duplicate this traditional scene.

Besides, the n-spell interpretation doesn't require you to add extra rules about designating a controller for the spell. It is closer to the text of the spell, and so should be the preferred reading.
It requires no extra text. I would appreciate it if people would abandon this straw-man tactic. The feat assumes the casters involved have previously discussed which spell to cast. It assumes they've previously discussed when to start casting it. Why is it such a logical leap to assume that the casters have previously discussed where to target it, and what effects (if any are choosable) will occur? The feat is assuming the casters are cooperating. Why do you seem to think that they cooperate up to a point, and then suddenly require a "leader" to choose things? Nowhere does the feat mention multiple spells. That's kind of important, don't you think? Do you think they just accidentally left it out?

Either of these arguments is, to me, sufficient; together they are so convincing that I can't understand why anyone would hold the contrary position.
Likewise, I'm sure.
 

Cheiromancer

Adventurer
The model for a "Guild Wizard" is, I believe, the Mage of the Arcane Order (CA 48) who needs to have the cooperative spell feat. So yeah, it makes sense that a wizard society would require its members to have its feat. But problems can arise only if a major goal of a wizard society is to amass as much firepower as possible, and forcibly recruit all other wizards to that end. Furthermore there would have to be enough wizards around to make the project practical, and that they would be willing to go along with the project. But it is quite conceivable that these not be true, even in high-magic, high-level campaign.

See this description of the high level wizards in Sep's campaign world, for instance:

[sblock]
The most powerful known wizards in Wyre and its dependencies at the end of the Seventh Century were, in no particular order of precedence, Jovol the Grey, Hlioth the Green Witch, Waide of Hethio, Mostin the Metagnostic, Shomei the Infernal and Tozinak.

They were, compared to those great names of history such as Tersimion and Fillein, a group of only moderate power. Nonetheless, they commanded considerable resources and, had they so chosen, could have exercised great influence in the temporal affairs of Wyre.

Jovol was never seen. An Ogre-Mage of enormous talent and power, he lived in a tower built upon an inaccessible aerie high in the Thrumohar mountains where he, presumably, performed some kind of research. No-one knew what kind. No-one had spoken to him for twenty years, and his only means of communication with his peers – who at other times doubted his existence – was through the medium of dreams.

Hlioth the Green Witch, who enjoyed appearing in the form of a wood-nymph, was the oldest of the group, and may have been immortal. She had abandoned the pursuit of arcanism years before and taken up the practice of druidry – something which most of the wizards in Wyre regarded as an insane departure from the pursuit of truth. She maintained no permanent home, but would occasionally be encountered by unsuspecting travellers in the deep forests of western Wyre, where her perverse sense of humour would manifest itself on those unfortunate enough to arouse her interest. Once every year, at midsummer, Hlioth would hold a revel which, occasionally, other wizards were invited to. The location and nature of the gathering was always a closely-kept secret until the day before, and her choice of guests apparently random.

In comparison, Waide, Shomei, Tozinek and, to a lesser extent, Mostin the Metagnostic, were more conventional in their outlook.

Waide was a Transmuter of high credentials, although criticized for his conservatism and lack of inventiveness. Through diligence, organization and the systematic pursuit of his art, he achieved notable results. Inspiration was a faculty he did not possess in great measure, but his sheer perseverance and bull-headedness ensured his inexorable rise to the ranks of the mighty. Every day, without fail, Waide would rise at dawn and enter his study. His laborious and time consuming methods of investigation slowly, little by little, gave results. Waide would retire, sleep for two hours, and repeat the same process day after day, year after year.

Shomei the Infernal, unsurprisingly, liked devils. She admired their organized nature, their ability to get things done, and had romantic notions about how badly they had been treated in the great revolt. Shomei, although not evil – at least in the conventional understanding of the word – had taken various diabolic lovers, produced a number of half-fiend offspring, and subsequently abandoned them. They were miserable creatures from whom Shomei constantly expected some kind of vengeful attack. Despite the protestations of the Church of Oronthon – who found her understandably suspicious – Shomei lived in a manse near the city of Morne. The Temple was in no way assuaged by the fact that that the architectural style of the building was in many ways influenced by the palace of the Adversary in Nessus. Shomei possessed a second dwelling – an abandoned fortress on the Astral Plane – in which she spent an increasing amount of time. Devils could visit her there without going through the tedious procedure of compacting and calling. These included her latest infernal suitor, Titivilus, a Duke of Hell in service to the Arch-Fiend Dispater.

Tozinak never appeared the same way twice, whether through his own fancy or perhaps because of some magical experiment that had gone terribly wrong, the effects of which he had never bothered to correct. He dwelt in a modest house on an island in the still waters of Lake Thahan, and despite his constantly changing aspect was, in fact, a very affable and personable man. Illusion was his specialty but he did, at times, work magic for the local fishermen who regarded him as something of a demigod. His estranged sister, Qiseze, had been slain on the Elemental Plane of Fire by the Cambion Feezuu – Qiseze having retired from the Prime some ten years before. Saddened by the loss of a sister from whom he had grown apart, Tozinak was first gratified by the death of Feezuu at the hands of Mostin the Metagnostic, and then depressed again when he learned of her new incarnation. He brooded but did nothing because, despite his genuine good-nature, Tozinak was something of a coward at heart.

Mostin the Metagnostic was regarded with mixed feelings by the other great wizards of Wyre. Jovol paid him little or no heed – although in this regard Mostin differed little from the other powerful mages – and the Alienist had long since given up trying to contact the Ogre-Mage for the exchange of useful news, spells or items. Mostin had only once been invited to one of Hlioth’s gatherings, and had found the Green Witch to be rather difficult company. Although her magical resources were extensive, her interest in arcana was not, and Hlioth’s pursuit of druidry involved a definite evangelical side. Cavorting with nymphs and dryads was all very well, Mostin had thought, and made for an amusing distraction, but it hardly constituted a worthwhile investment of time and energy.

Waide was a stuffy pedant, and hence closest to Mostin in disposition, although the Alienist cared little for him. He was moved by transmutation only – nothing else was of the remotest interest to him, and Mostin found this narrow-mindedness intolerable. After all, there was room for a good deal of eclecticism in magic, and a sound knowledge of other schools often informed theories in the field of specialization.

Shomei, on the other hand, was one with whom Mostin at once possessed a natural rapport. She shared his Goetic inclinations – although in her case, she had gone somewhat further than the Alienist deemed advisable – and was attractive to boot. Mostin was disturbed by her misalliances with a number of Infernal dukes, however, and had not paid her a visit in several years. His own mentor, the Alienist Vhorzhe, had been a frequent visitor to Shomei’s manse until his unfortunate death**. It was from Vhorzhe that Mostin also developed a passing interest in diablerie.

Tozinak and Mostin were on polite, if not amicable terms. They shared little in the way of mutual interest, and the Alienist found the Illusionist’s constant shape-shifting rather baffling. Nonetheless, it was difficult not to like Tozinak – he was agreeable and threw fine parties, at which wizards of varying ability and persuasion would hob-nob, boast of their accomplishments, and attempt to humiliate their rivals. Mostin would occasionally visit these congregations, although his eeriness and precise logic often left those with weaker wills feeling disturbed.

Aside from those six already mentioned, a number of other mages of noteworthy, if lesser, power existed. The Enchanter Idro, who dwelt deep within the forest of Nizkur, was an erstwhile acquaintance of Mostin, although the Alienist had not visited him since his attempted manipulation of Ortwin of Jiuhu to slay his rival, Troap. Idro was mean-spirited and grabbing, and exercised dominion over a number of creatures – mainly feys – in his locale. To be so old, yet to have grown so little in terms of aspirations and accomplishment, spoke of both a limited ability to master magic and a lack of diligence.

Troap, on the other hand, enjoyed a reputation for benign – if erratic – intervention in the affairs of the great forest. The Feys considered him kindly and, despite his goblin blood, even the Elves paid him little heed. Troap’s existence was unknown to Mostin for many years, and the Alienist often wondered how many other wizards pursued their art in utmost secrecy, preferring a wholly solitary lifestyle to even the most infrequent of contact with their brethren.

Idro and Troap, and others of their ilk – including Griel (an evoker), Dauntun of Gibilrazen (a diviner), Rimilin of the Skin and the Hag Jalael – represented the ‘second tier’ of mages in Wyre. There were, perhaps, a dozen in all and in a few cases (notably Rimilin and Jalael), they approached the great mages in terms of their power and resources. They possessed a range of specialities, and their characters – as viewed by the general populace - ran the gamut from benign and well-liked (like Dauntun) to ruthless and despised (like Rimilin). As a group, they demonstrated little cohesion, but most were known to each other and, barring vendettas traceable to real or imagined wrongs between them, they co-existed in relative peace.[/sblock]

Even with the n-spell reading of cooperative spell there is no reason to think that any of the wizards mentioned here would take it.

Note too that wizards with n-spell capability are very powerful, but also very vulnerable. If they gather, they are an enormous target for any enemies they might have.

I would like to point out, too, that the spells you mention (quest, mark of justice, etc.) are not kept in check by nerfing cooperative spell. If you had enough high level clerics in one place that their cooperative quests would be a problem, then there is a problem even if they don't cast them cooperatively. They could cast them individually for almost as good an effect. I guess I am saying that the problems you point out would exist anyway, given the assumption that there are many high powered, power-hungry spellcasters around who will cooperate to gain more power. Cooperative spell doesn't bring this problem into being, though I admit the n-spell version would make it worse.

Anyway... I think I've made my main points, and repeated some of them more often than I needed to. If anything new occurs to me, I'll be sure to add it.

Good gaming!
 

colinfit20

Explorer
Reg: Cooperate spell

My original thought was that this feat effects both spells rather than reducing it to one but I did reread (and delay spell too) and have to agree it does sound like each additional caster adds only to the save dc and spell resistance effect rather than having their own spell effected the same way.
It makes sense that this is intended for those times when some extraplanar foe comes wading through all resistance and the only way to beat it is to overcome its spell resistance and send it packing (ala Tarrasque for example).
When concerning a flight of dragons you would be better off cutting loose with either Empowered Fireballs or better yet Chain Empowered Fireballs with Energy Substitution if they're red dragons.
In regards to delay spells and scrolls there's nothing to stop you casting a cooperative spell enhanced burning hands spell as long as the accomapnying spell is also delayed so they act simultaneously as the restrictions on the feat states.
 

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